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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: talesofthesevenseas on October 21, 2009, 09:57:39 PM
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I was hooked on antiques from the time I was a little kid. This is one I purchased at our neighbor's garage sale when I was a little girl in the 60's, and I think I paid twenty-five cents for it. It is battered and old, but I have always loved it. I know absolutely nothing about it and have never seen another one like it. I have searched online and have never been able to locate anything similar. I would love to know ANYTHING about it!
Here is what I know. The family it came from was well-to-do. Each oval measures 10"x8". The mirror is in the condition that I got it in, which is pretty poor. The mirrors themselves are very thick, I think about 1/4" thick, with beveled edges. There is some loss of the silvering around the edges of the mirror, but it is fairly minimal. The hinges are what I would call "acorn" style, but I don't know if that is the correct term. The Native Americans are hand painted, and they are also partially carved into the wood, to accent the painting.
There is no signature anywhere on this piece. I have gone over every inch of it, including the hinges and the ring with a magnifying glass and there is simply nothing.
Looking at the style of the chain, hinges, thick glass, wear, style of the piece and fading of the paintings, I'm going out on a limb and placing my bet that it dates to 1880-1915, during the period when Buffalo Bill's Wild West show was all the rage, and was probably the work of an artist who did old west paintings, it does not appear to be the work of a Native American artist.
What do you think?
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Mirror1.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Mirror2.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Mirror3.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Mirror4.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Mirror5.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Mirror6.jpg)
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That is a really cool item tales. Wish I knew more about mirrors. I was just trying to understand the three way mirror design. Does it somehow fold into on Oval? The Art seems like it is on the back of the mirror, so hanging it on the wall one would not see the art. Sorry for the ignorance in design here. It also appears to be a early wood burning, instead of carved into, before weller heated metal irons was used I believe, from memory back in my woodburning age, like age 10 :D. Then painted over the burning. Anyway it looks pretty neat, and in my youth I would of snagged it too. Also pretty sure it is worth lot more then 25 pennies from the allowance money, even with inflation.
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The people who are depicted on your cool little item appear (to me) to be Lakota (Sioux tribe) .
In answer to your question below , I've hung-out with and known many members of the Lakota Nation since my childhood ; the era of this style of dress was indeed the "Wild Bill" days .
I've also got a bit of what's known (by non-'indians') as "Cherokee" ancestory in my Heinz57 bloodline ...
Identifying 'tribes' or 'nations' of Native American ancestory is a whole 'nuther field ... many factors are in play in this ; just like antiques , experience counts for alot !
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Yep Ironlord that is exactly right, the two side mirrors fold inward over the center mirror and you are right, when the mirrors are out, you cannot see the paintings. With it all folded closed, you would see the male figure hanging on the wall, then open his side to see the female, then you open her side to reveal all three mirrors. So essentially, it is a wall mirror disguised as an old west painting on wood.
It does not appear to be a wood burning. There is no sign that I can see of that kind of technique. The carvings look distinctly like cuts up close, but they are worn smooth in places. It seems just to have been cut into the wood, then painted. I don't see any blackening/scorching like you do with wood burning. I could be wrong, but I think this is earlier than wood burning kits too.
That is really cool that they look Lakota Souix! Can you tell this by the style of dress? I'd like to learn more about identifying their tribe.
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The irons you were talking about were pre-electricity? Like the old curling irons? I'm looking at it really close and I just don't see any sign of it being a wood burning.
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I thought these were refered to as shaving or make up mirrors.
A victorian one I sold had a similar hanging chain, similar hinges only without the acorns, and had 3 beveled heavy glass mirrors that folded all into one piece.
The backs were decorated with leather hunting scenes and I got $200 for it.
I think yours is far nicer in the fact that it seems to be hand done and I really like the Indian subject matter.
My guess for what it's worth on the date would be about the same as yours.
I would think that this would appeal to many.
Folk Art and Native American collectors to name a few.
Really interesting and unique.
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Thanks! I tried running a search for photographs of Lakota Sioux and I think Fancypants may be right. There were a lot that looked very similar to my two old friends, a lot of Oglala Sioux also that looked very similar. Below is Chief Red Cloud of the Lakota.
(http://www.legendsofamerica.com/photos-nativeamerican/REdCloud5-500.jpg)
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Whoops, found another site saying Red Cloud was Oglala looks like Oglala and Lakota are closely related maybe? ...and here is Slow Bull of the Oglala in 1872:
(http://sirismm.si.edu/naa/baegn/gn_03216a.jpg)
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Would be interesting to see if some type of Plains Indian forum exist.
Someone there could possibly have an ID with one look or have knowledge about their dress.
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That would be REALLY interesting! I hadn't thought about it before, but I wonder if someone sat for the painting or if it was done from a photograph? I had never really given it a lot of thought, but contacting the Sioux Nation about it would be neat. The more I can understand of it's history the better.
This mirror was a funny thing to catch the eye of a little girl I guess. I don't think I was more than eight years old or thereabouts when I bought it, but the paintings of the Native American's I found fascinating, even at a very young age. I'm glad you guys are finding this one interesting too! Some people look at my mirror and think it is just junky! It is very battered. For me it has just been one of those antiques that I know will be with me throughout my life. Funny how that happens, huh?
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I agree with Dean. It is a folding shaving/make-up mirror probably made for members of a “traveling circus/rodeo” so that it could be hung on a nail or peg when needed for use.
Or for hunting/excurison trips to the American wild, wild West or on safaris to Africa, etc.
And the Native Americans hand painted and partially carved into the back sides was most probably done by its owner just like the whalers would carve the scrimshaw pieces during their free time. Or the hobos that created all the Tramp Art. Just Google Tramp Art ‘images’ for pictures of it.
Thus, given the Indian motif, it very well could have been done by a member of Buffalo Bill’s troupe or another traveling rodeo troupe. A great piece of early “Americana”.
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Getting closer ;)
But without your mirror's unique detail.......
http://www.comfortablestyle.com/anfotrmi.html
http://www.rubylane.com/shops/genevaantiquemkt/item/GL268?gbase=1
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:)That was a well spent 25 cents. Wild Bill is all most a sure thing. the style is victorian. $ 250.00 to $ 300.00 Dollars should be no problem.
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No kidding! I had not thought about a private owner carving/painting it, I just had assumed it came that way. That is really cool! I'm glad to know it is a travel mirror too. I've learned a whole lot from you guys! Thanks!!
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OK now this has really got the gears turning in my head... The name of the family whose garage sale this came from was Barry. I ran a search and found that there was a photographer named David Frances Barry aka D.F. Barry who had a long-time relationship with Buffalo Bill Cody. He did a series of photographs of the members of the Wild West show including Buffalo Bill, Annie Oakley and none other than Red Cloud. I wonder if the family I got this from were descendants? I think this calls for a little detective work!!!
http://photoswest.org/exhib/barry/barry.htm (http://photoswest.org/exhib/barry/barry.htm)
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Douglas County Historical Society
In 1854 Douglas County was established at the western end of Lake Superior and the town of Superior was named the center of county government. A local historical society was founded that same year, operating under the name of the Superior Historical Society until 1934, when the group's name and mission was changed to include all of Douglas County. In 1963, the Douglas County Historical Society moved its collections to Fairlawn Mansion, the grand home built by lumber and mining baron Martin Pattison in 1890. In 2002, the Society relocated to another historic building in Superior - the 1925 Vasa Temple. One of the Society's most significant holdings is the David F. Barry Collection of photographs and related artifacts. Barry was a photographer who documented Native Americans, military forts and battles, and Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West Show in the Dakota Territory in the 1880s and later settled in Superior.
http://www.douglashistory.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=108&Itemid=156
Pictured here is part of our
David Barry Display.
This famous frontier and pioneer photographer helped preserve the pictorial history of the old West with photos of The Custers, military officers and enlisted men, military forts, the little Bighorn Battlefield in Montana, and also Buffalo Bill Cody with his Wild West shows. Without his camera images, much of the photographic record of the people, places and events of the past would be lost to us today.
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I located the descendants of David Frances Barry the photographer on Ancestry.com and I have sent a message trying to find out if any relatives or descendants of his ever lived on Fairway Drive in San Jose California. If so... Holy @$&#!! Talk about a "Roadshow Moment!"
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;D Tales my Older brother is jealous. he is and indian collector, and I might add own's a real cigar store indian.
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Some people look at my mirror and think it is just junky! It is very battered. For me it has just been one of those antiques that I know will be with me throughout my life. Funny how that happens, huh?
Good luck on the provenance for this interesting item.
Hopefully this tuns out well so you can say 'What Now' to the people who called it junky.
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D & B tell your brother not to get too excited yet, it still seems unfathomable to me that any relations of D.F. Barry could not have known what this mirror was and would let it go at a garage sale. This may all be wishfull thinking on my part.
I am trying to reach my mom to see if she remembers the first names of our neighbors. If she does not remember I can also check the phone directories at our local genealogy library and go from there. I had hoped to be able to access the 1970 census records online, but it doesn't look like the later ones are available online, although I believe I can order my own information and we should see the Barry's info right next door on the same page. This shouldn't be too tough.
D.F. Barry does have a family tree on Ancestry.com and I looked through that. He never had any children from the looks of things, but he did have a whole bunch of brothers and sisters. I suppose it is possible that one of these siblings was either our neighbor or had a child or relation who was our neighbor. We didn't know them very well and I remember them as being elderly.
Fingers crossed, more on this ASAP.
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Nope, it's not the same family. Our neighbor was A. Chandler "Chan" Berry, spelled with an E.
So I guess what I have is an 1880 - 1900 traveling or shaving mirror that someone decorated with a Sioux portrait. Still cool :)
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If you could get some good provenance the value would go up some more, although I don't see you selling something you've had for so long. Very neat and unique idem!
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Oh I'm not selling it, I just wanted to learn what it is because it has fascinated me for so many years. I could still try to contact the descendants in the Berry framily to find out who owned it.
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Nope, it's not the same family. Our neighbor was A. Chandler "Chan" Berry, spelled with an E.
Tales, don't let the difference in the spelling prevent you from further research.
Ya gotta remember that there were many, many more "spelling changes" made in names by County Clerks, Circuit Clerks, etc. than there ever was by approval by a Judge.
Back in the 19th and first half of the 20th Century there were still many, many people who could not read or write and when they got married, bought property, got arrested, etc. ..... and was asked what their name was and how to spell it, .... "DUH", they didn't know how to spell it. Especially many of those who migrated West toward California. So, the person writing it down on a Legal Document had no way to check or verify family references for the correct spelling, ..... thus spelled it however he/she wanted to ...... and forever after that was how that person name and all of his decendents's name was spelled.
Many such variations in names was due to the Nationality/heritage of the Clerk writing it down. For instance, my ancestral name is German, circa 1600, spelled with a “K”, Koger. But somewhere along the way in the late 1700's or1800’s an Englishman in America spelled it with a “C” and changed the “e” to an “a” making it Cogar. And there are other spellings but their origins are all the same.
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Cogar you are so right. I have more ''Spelling's'' to my last name to a point I'am not sure what is correct.
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This is true on the spelling, but looking at the photographer's family tree, there's no indication of this family being part of it. I do have an inquiry in to the family, so I'll see if that turns up anything. But there's really no reason to think the neighbor's family had any connection to Buffalo Bill, at least at this point. The show was so popular, I could see where an artist who had no real affiliation might be inspired to paint the Sioux. I guess the thing to do would be to track down this family and see who it belonged to.
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I wanted to post a follow-up on this topic. I think I may know who one of the two portrait subjects are on this mirror. I posted photos of the portraits on a Native American forum, and asked if anyone recognized them. It looks like the artist may have based the male portrait on this photograph of Wolf Robe of the Cheyenne. Take a look:
(http://i50.tinypic.com/30ctzz8.jpg)(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Mirror3.jpg)
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The model may have come from this colored postcard of Wolf Robe. Notice the peace medal in the card and photo of Wolf Robe. The mirror shows the neck strap but leaves out the medal.
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Yes, I really think the guy who directed me to Wolf Robe nailed it- The loose strands of hair at the back of his head match, the vest, the neckerchief with the slide to hold it, the lines on his face and the profile. A few tiny differences, but it really looks dead-on. I had not noticed the Peace Medal strap, but you're right, it's there caved in lightly. I think there are enough matches to this photo that I am comfortable saying it is Wolf Robe.
I think it certainly adds a nice bit of provenance (maybe value too?) to the mirror and I will find a nice history on him and put it with the photo and will keep both with the mirror. I'm really excited to know who he is after carrying him around with me through thick and thin for more than 40 years!
Now the next question is, who the woman is who is with him? I suspect that since the artist worked from a photograph of Wolf Robe, that he also worked from a photograph of the woman. Maybe she will also turn out to be Cheyenne, maybe she was a wife, or a prominent woman, or just was a subject that the artist liked.
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http://www.indigenouspeople.net/wolfrobe.htm
Chief Wolf Robe
Wolf Robe, a chief of the southern Cheyenne Indian tribe, appears above in a photograph taken in 1909. During the late 1870s, Wolf Robe's tribe was forced to leave the open plains and relocate on a reservation in Oklahoma.
Additional information from Ken West, artist:
"Wolf Robe is a Southern Cheyenne and is believed to be the one whose profile was used on the "Indian Head Nickel" Although several different Indians were originally chosen, Wolf Robe is the one most likely used because of the striking resemblance.
The Cheyenne were divided into two groups, the Southern Cheyenne who were located along the upper Arkansas River and the Northern Cheyenne who were located at the headwaters of the Platt River.
In 1864 a group of peaceful Cheyenne were massacred by U.S. Military forces at Sand Creek, Colorado. In 1876 the Cheyenne joined the Sioux and defeated Col. George Custer at the Battle of the Little Bighorn. In 1877 the Cheyenne surrendered and were relocated to "Indian Territory: which is present day Oklahoma.
In 1990 the total number of Cheyenne descendants was about 11,000 many of whom still live on reservations in southwestern Oklahoma and southeastern Montana."
;)
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Wolf Robe.........1898 & 1909
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Tales, another picture from 1898 which is from the same session as your photo. This one has a much clearer shot of his medal. Found all these wonderful pics on the forum below.....possibly a source of info for you?? No sign of a wife/woman in any pics with him that I came across (but it's late and I'm just home from work ;))
http://thunderdreamers.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1247164470
Edited to add: It's a Benjamin Harris Peace Medal ( Wolf Robe 1838/41 - 1910 )
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A daughter??
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~oknarp/ncen1.html
Names of pupils / Other name if any / Sex / Date of Birth / Nativity
WOLF ROBE, Josephine / Medacine Dance / F / Apr 1888 / Cheyenne
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Still no sign of a wife, but..........
WILD WEST magazine August 2010 cover ;)
http://www.historynet.com/wild-west-august-2010-table-of-contents.htm
http://www.indigenouspeople.net/whatgood.htm
"I want to recognize the following people, because they have written,
thanking me for honoring their grandparents and other relatives at this site:
Paul A LaForte
Descendant of Chief Wolf Robe
http://cheyenne-arapaho.ru/photos/cheyenne/photo119.htm
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Oh wow, that's an email addy for Paul Laforte! I guess I should drop him an email. I imagine he would find the mirror interesting to see, and maybe he knows who the woman is. I'll report back on that! Thanks Sapphire!
I dug all through the photos of Cheyenne on that site and none seemed to match the woman on the mirror, but I may try posting the portrait on some other Native American sites to see if someone may recognize her, the way they did Wolf Robe.
I found some conflicting info on the buffalo nickel portrait, there are a variety of sources saying that the portrait on the nickel is a composite of three or four chiefs, depending on which article you're reading. Names I saw attributed to the composite were Wolf Robe, Two Guns White Calf, Two Moons and Iron Tail.
I'm really pleased to know who he is. After seeing his face all these years it is really neat to know he was a real person and to see his photograph.
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Another hit Tales.........
http://boards.ancestry.families.aol.com/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=15&p=localities.northam.usa.states.oklahoma.prestatehood.oklaterr1900.cheyennearapaholands
Last post on page:
"I really hope that you still read this message board. I believe that i too am a descendant of Chief Wolf Robe. I have an 15th Anniversary i think its for the tribe with him, his wife and two kids. Also have a picture of him and his wife. These were given to me by my mother which were given to her by my her mother."
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You rock Sapphire! I'll follow up with both!
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This is exciting/interesting/inspiring and intriguing.......
Let us know!
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Well, I tried emailing Paul Laforte (a descendant of Wolf Robe) and the email bounced back. I'll try messaging the other person through Ancestry.com.
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Tales, would this site be of any help?
http://www.cheyenneancestors.com/
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Could be! Thanks again!
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http://cghswyoming.org/portfolio.html
http://www.native-languages.org/cheyenne_culture.htm
http://www.cyndislist.com/native.htm
Did find note that Wolf Robe was Southern Cheyenne ;)
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/photo/leaders.htm
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/cheyenne/southnorthhist.htm
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/arapaho/index.htm
http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/cheyenne/cheyennehist.htm
"The Southern Cheyenne were assigned to a reservation in western Oklahoma by treaty of 1867, but refused to remain upon it until after the surrender of 1875, when a number of the most prominent hostiles were deported to Florida for a term of 3 years. In 1901-02 the lands of the Southern Cheyenne were allotted in severalty and the Indians are now American citizens."
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Oops, missed one....
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~usgenweb/ok/nations/cheyarap/cheyennearapaho.htm
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I've been scouring o/l images of post cards (for the woman on your item) talesof , with no positive matches yet - but still looking .
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Thanks Sapphire! This is turning into quite a project! I suspect it may go on for a while until we find her.
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I'm posting a follow-up on this topic. It took four years but I found her! The Native American lady who was the subject of my pyrography mirrors appears to be from a 1902 painting called simply "Indian Squaw" by Elbridge Ayer Burbank.
Here is the Indian Squaw painting and the portrait on my mirror:
(http://prints.encore-editions.com/0/500/elbridge-ayer-burbank-indian-squaw-1902.jpg)(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Mirror4.jpg)
And for comparison so that you don't have to scroll back, here is the portrait previously ID'd as Wolf Robe and his photo:
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Mirror3.jpg)(http://i50.tinypic.com/30ctzz8.jpg)
Here is the whole mirror:
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Mirror1.jpg)
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Mirror2.jpg)
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I was not here when you did this one !! I wondered why I didn`t remember it !! How did you finally find out who it was ??
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I was thinking about the mirror this morning and so I ran yet another of many random Google image searches. This time I searched for Sioux squaw and BINGO! There she was!
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That's an interesting mirror !! Its unusual to have Native American images on it !! Glad you finally found out who it was !!
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I have tried researching Paul Albert LaForte and found 2: 1 in Canada and 1 in Massachusetts. Only reference to them...but no additional information. Will keep searching!
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Yet another piece of a mystery solved !!!
Nice work , talesof .
8) 8) 8)