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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: way2shg on November 12, 2009, 08:55:17 AM
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Hello everyone,
This may sound crazy but you all seem so experienced so I am sure you've heard/seen crazier in the amazing antique world.
About 15 years ago, I purchased my deceased grandparents home in Philadelphia from my father and his sisters (my aunts). At the time, most of my grandparents larger furnishings were still in the home. The family members had already taken what they'd wanted. Two very emotionally significant pieces remained....but my family tends to hold onto lots of things and nobody had room for these pieces. They called a local antique dealer who was working (I think) out of a warehouse kind of shop on our neighborhood. She was to come and survey for value, but she wound up striking a deal to take everything and I watched her peel off what I thought was about 5 $100 bills. Then she loaded the items into a pick up truck and off she went. I was in my mid 20s at the time.
A few years ago, I became very involved in researching my family history and found much success in it. I linked up with a 70 yr old relative with similar interests. She began telling me the family history and the about the furniture in my grandparents home. She had no idea these items had been sold. She assumed they were still in the house that I'd purchased. She believed that the items that had been sold had previously been handed down to my grandparents from their parents...and potentially their grandparents.
Now, for several years, I have strongly longed to find these items and buy them back - and, yes, it is very emotional - and yes, I know I may have to pay through the nose now.
I am attaching photos of the items so that anyone here may help me in describing them to better allow me to search. I am not an antique expert, by any means. If you would please do your best to give me a description of the items and any hint about their origination, I'd really be so grateful. Unfortunately, these items were in the photos as mere backdrop, so I don't have any detailed shots and I never checked them for markings/labels. I really want to find these pieces. Is that impossible? Any suggestions on how to approach this?
The first is what my aunts always called a chiffonier, but my 70 yr old relative says it was my great grandfather's music cabinet. As you can see, it has a mirror on the back of the top and then another tier with a metal rail around it. I am reluctant to describe the inside because I can't really recall what it looked like. I know my grandparents kept their liquor and bar ware in it. It had a skeleton key which locked the cabinet. In the photo with the little boy, you can see the brass mounts and the detail on the feet:
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m213/way2shg/croppedsmallphotoofmusiccabinet.jpg?t=1258036144)
Here is another shot if it in the background:
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m213/way2shg/largeoriginalsizephotoofmusiccabine.jpg?t=1258036295)
The other piece for which I am hunting is a secretary. This was a very tall piece. The home has very tall ceilings, so you can tell how tall the piece is. I recall one of the glass fronts on the bookcase door being cracked straight across. I have searched and searched the internet and cannot find one that looks similar to this. The family was from Philadelphia and New York, so it could have come from either of those.
For this one, I am sorry it is small. I was reluctant to blow it up for fear of distorting it, but I see that I may have to:
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m213/way2shg/detailphotoofsecretary-1.jpg?t=1258037450)
In this one, my grandmom covered the glass doors with christmas paper and also the top of the desk part. When the desk was folded up, it was straight, not slanted. It had a skeleton key lock on the drop down desk part and also on both sets of doors, top and bottom. There were drawers in the secretary desk part, once you opened the desk.
(http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m213/way2shg/anotherphotoofsecretary.jpg?t=1258037531)
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Never too late to try. Many of us are always trying to reconnect with the past. It's what makes us dealers and collectors. I applaud your efforts and as you well know it is an undaunted task. It is reallllllllly hard to say from the photos. your secretary 'appears' to be a Renaissance Revival piece, circa 1885 but may well be later then that. To determine, one would need closeups, etc.
You may want to consider spreading this information about your community or a certain radius of your community, as they would have most likely been purchased withing those boundaries. Consider free advertising via post it boards, flyers. Some internet services offer free advertising on their web sites.
My wife's family sold out their heirlooms via live auction back in the 60's. One item was a curved glass china cabinet. I knew the lady who possessed it and when she passed on 25 years later of so, her husband offered it to me for $2000. I knew that he was going to have another upcoming sale and I told him I would take my chances. We'll, a fellow drove 14 hours from Texas to purchase that cabinet. I ended up paying $3600 for it but to me it didn't matter. It was a family piece that belonged to my wife's grandmother and it was going home with me.
Again I applaud your efforts and hope you can connect............ ..... 8)
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I would start with the dealer who bought the estate, and try to track down where the items went. Best of luck on restoring them to your family!
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The chances of you connecting with the exact same pieces would be about the same as winning the lottery although it's not impossible. If you can determine the maker and period of each piece, you can always purchase a duplicate.
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Thanks for the replies. Unfortunately, the dealer was part of a very short-lived, funky kind of antique "mall" in our local neighborhood. It closed less than a year after the sale of the items. I have gone to other local antique shops on that same street to see if anyone remembers and they say that they cant even recollect this mall being there.
What is the proper term for the roof-line of the secretary? I'd call it triangular shaped, but I am sure there is a more appropriate name. Is the piece in the center a cornice or a crest?
Does the cabinet look like a music cabinet, or something else?
My original photos look much better than these scans. I will visit the local photo shop and have them professionally enlarged.
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Your 70 year old relative is correct it is a Victorian music cabinet. beautiful piece!! I have seen only a few like this one and they ran in the range of $580.00 to $700.00. Good luck I have seen many pieces find there way home to family members so don't lose hope. Will keep an eye out in my travels. again good luck
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Your little boy. Is holding on to a Louis the 16 th Eterage. ( FRENCH)which has worked very well as a wine cellar. As for the secratary. it' looks to be Georgian. clearer photos would help.
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You should be able to contact your local business association, chamber of commerce and better business bureau to get the names of the business owner of the antique mall. They should have a record of who the sellers were in the mall, as these people would have to have had business licenses.
Be prepared also that even if you can find who bought the furniture, the current owners may refuse to part with it. I sure do hope you can find them!
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Do you live in a fairly small town? If so, put a notice in the paper once you find out the name of the mall and ask if anyone purchased said items to contact you! Many times long shots pay off!
I commend you on connecting with your past and the memories. Unfortunately, with all the furniture stores and access that we have these days, we don't truly recognize the hardships and sacrifices that families made many, many years ago to purchase a single piece of furniture. I truly appreciate how my grandmother spanked my "southside" when I tried to get into her china cabinet (I didn't then) because it was a true treasure to her and all of the pieces inside were from family generations before. Fortunately they have been dispersed out to all my relatives and I have some beautiful pieces as well.
We are all rooting for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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What is the proper term for the roof-line of the secretary? I'd call it triangular shaped, but I am sure there is a more appropriate name. Is the piece in the center a cornice or a crest?
Would be considered a Triangular Pediment
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Triangular Pediment with molded medallion.......... ...at least it appear so.
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KC,
thanks for the suggestion about the local ad. I live in Philadelphia (actually in the city proper), but in an old neighborhood section called Chestnut Hill. We do have a very small local paper and it is well read, so your suggestion is a good one.
Tales,
I will try the local business association route. Lots of old businesses are still in place and they'd probably remember who ran the mall.
Wendy and D&B, one of you called it a music cabinet and the other an etegere. Would those be interchangeable terms? Any idea on the age?
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Eterage is not interchangable, with a sheet music cabinet. it's appearence would indicate it's likely to be and original, louis the 16 th. as for the secretary that type of pediment was commonly, used until about circa 1830. assumeing it's not a reproduction.
Which is not likely.due too the fact the dealer was eager to pay $ 500.00 Dollars.which would have been a large sum of money coming from a local dealer.
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D&b, I was biting my tongue on this one. I agree. The cabinet is FRENCH!!!!!!! Never seen a locking music cabinet of this sort....sheet music was prestigious...but not that valuable! Agree with Louis XVI as well. (Love the French furniture!!!!!!!) The details on the legs and style definitely French and a little off for "Victorian". If an original and in great shape (imagine a whistle here) worth more than you may care to pay to get it back if you should ever find it!
I also agree, for a local little shabby mall to pay $500 - they knew what they were getting their hands on and laughed all the way down the road!
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Welcome to the forum , way2shg .
Thanks for posting your pics & the story behind them .
I am wishing you the best in the new chapter of the story you're researching .
I'd also love to hear that you & your family items become reunited .
I hope you can keep an open mind , while searching (& researching) for your stuff .
Just don't give up if you keep hittin' dead-ends .... this happens alot , even to the professionals ( but sometimes a passionate 'non-pro' looks in places that the pros don't .... and winds up hittin' the jackpot ) .
;)
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Let me add, if a true collector of French furniture has it...then you most likely won't want to pay the $$$ for it. However, if someone bought it just because they liked it....it will be more feasible that you could attain it again!
NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!! It may take you a lifetime to track these down....that is the adventure of the hunt and the "ah hah" at the end! Don't give up! Enjoy yourself and learn along the way! What you learn, share with us and others on this site!
We welcome you here with your questions and journey!
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Everyone, I really REALLY appreciate all of the encouragement. It might take me a lifetime and I may not succeed, but imagine the joy I can have whilst searching and the great learnings I'll acquire along the way.
I really wish you'd all have declared these items as worthless copies (smile). That would have given me relief and hope that if I were to find them, I'd be able to get them back. At minimum, I hope to learn what happened to them and perhaps follow their journey, even if in the care of another family.
My grandmother also had a collection of Handwerk dolls in a box in her basement. After I took posession of the house, I found them in a box in the basement. My great-great grandpop on that side had been from Germany and he traveled back and forth twice during the 1800s. He must have brought these over on one of those trips. Anyway, I pulled them out and sat them on my grandmother's chair by the fireplace. They had the original clothes, hair and all. I bought a book on Handwerk and became familiar. About a week later, I told my aunt what I'd found. Two days later I came home from work and the dolls were gone. She'd come in while I was at work, took the dolls and sold them for $500. As a collection, they were worth at least $5k. To me, they were priceless and I would never have sold them. I don't understand my aunt doing this as she was a relatively wealthy lady herself. Nobody in my family has ever struggled for money, so I just don't understand the selling of the family treasures. If you want to sell something, sell your own things, not what has been handed down through prior generations. After that, anything I found, I kept quiet about.
Anyway, thanks again! Will let you all know how its going and will definitely stick around and learn more from the forum.
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:'( :'( :'( Oh OUCH!!!!! :'( :'( :'(
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Yep :-\
And, to add insult to injury, this same GGGrandpop, Gephard Harres, who we expect brought the dolls for my GGrandmom, is the GGrandpop of a certain famous aviatrix who went missing over the pacific in 1937.
I couldnt make this up.
So, now, we have the fugitive slave, the aviatrix, and the lost cabinet....
(oh, and the "captive memoirs" that are another topic for another day)
See why i want my stuff back? LOL
Maybe if I can get a book deal, I can earn enough money to get the cabinet and the secretary back.
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I must correct myself on one thing....about the lock on the door. I was thinking a lock separate from the handle (what was I thinking, duh). In that period/time the key in the lock was the handle to open it. (Like many of the items that I have - no handle - just the key in the lock handle!)
The thing that compels me to believe that it's original purpose wasn't a music cabinet is the fact that the family's liquor was kept in it. A music cabinet had many shelves in it to hold the pages/leaflets of music. So, they either ripped the wooden shelves out....or....it wasn't a music cabinet to begin with!
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Thanks KC.
We were thinking it was a music cabinet because the family had several other music cabinets, which all remain in the family. My great-grandfather was an opera singer and his father and siblings, when he was younger, worked the underground railroad as jubilee singers carrying messages for Douglass, Mott, Garrison, Still, etc. If it had been an original Louis XV, I assume it would have been given to him by one of the wealthy abolitionists.
More likely, it would have come from my great-grandmother's family, the Harres'. They were the wealthy side back in the 1800s - gentry of Philadelphia.
I may never know.
I believe the stories behind the antiques give them life. I'd much rather have a 200 yr old colorful life story on a piece of paper than a priceless antique which has lost it's story.
I do hope all of the dealers and collectors will try their best to keep the authentic stories attached to the pieces.
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Well said about a colorful life story Way2shg! And you are inextricably tied to your ancestors. Their story is part of your story. We're all chapters in the book.