Antique-shop.com
Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: tinkerbell on January 15, 2010, 02:09:21 PM
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Hi to all. i'm new at this site so please bare with me. for a very long time i have been really REALLY wondering about this antique piece i have. i have searched online for a very long time and have found no help nor anything like it.
the engravings are all hand done. the jug is very old and has lots of wear. it appears that the metal may have been flat at one time, engraved then formed into a jug. in the inside of the jug you can see that the engravings on the outside of the jug poke out. (hope that makes sense). any ideas at all? please, all opinions are very much appreciated. i've taken several pictures. i will post as many as i can on this post. if i can't fit them all, scroll down for the rest of them. ps. the engravings appear to be kings giving gifts to a more noble king?? i'm lost and frustrated. in southern mississippi there are no qualified antique dealers who remotely know anything about this piece. also, it stands over a foot high. it's not standing straight anymore. i'm assuming it's because of wear and tear. (this is noticeable at the bottom).
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug002.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug001.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug003.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug008.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug009.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug010.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug011.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug004.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug005-1.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug014.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug017.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug018.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug006.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug023.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug024.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug012.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug013.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug019.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug020.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug021.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metaljug022.jpg)
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Decorative piece!
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but what is it?? i even went so far as to try and date it by researching the screws. screws were invented in 400BC.. haha! great! no help there. the handles only go up even with the rim of the jug. i'm assuming it was for support for pouring maybe wine? anyway, screws like this were more common in the 1500's.. i'm not sure if this is from the 1500's but it is sure old. in the 1700's the cross screws were more common (phillips or flat head). i am super lost on this.
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Those are machine made screws, so you can definitely rule out this being hundreds of years old. The rest of it appears to be hand beaten and hand tool decorated. I would conclude that it is a tourist piece from the middle east. I think the figures are meant to be Assyrian or Babylonian. I would think it was made sometime during the last century. They still do this kind of work over there today. A very nice piece none the less!
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machine made screws were made as early as the 1700's. here is a small clip from my research:Early Screws
Around the first century, screw shaped tools became common, however, historians do not know who invented the first. Early screws were made from wood and were used in wine presses, olive oil presses, and for pressing clothes. Metal screws and nuts used to fasten two objects together first appeared in the fifteenth century.
Mass Production of Screws
In 1770, English instrument maker, Jesse Ramsden (1735-1800) invented the first satisfactory screw-cutting lathe. Ramsden inspired other inventors. In 1797, Englishmen, Henry Maudslay (1771-1831) invented a large screw-cutting lathe that made it possible to mass-produce accurately sized screws. In 1798, American David Wilkinson also invented machinery for the mass production of threaded metal screws.
this information can be read by following the link below:
http://inventors.about.com/od/sstartinventions/a/screwdriver.htm
so, in all actuality i still don't know if it's several hundred years old or not but that's for the response : )
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oops.. thanks for the response not "that's for the response" hehe.. sorry, typo : )
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Welcome to the forum , tink .
The main body of your item appears to be one that a number of methods were used to produce , a 'fusion' if you will , of the specialized art of repousee (metal-forming from hammering out a flat sheet of metal ; from the inside of the item , to make highly detailed forms on the exterior of an item) & the rather crude skill of 'stamping' metal .... too crude to be considered 'engraving' (which is , generally , cutting away metal - not unlike wood carving) .
You could always remove one of the machine screws , to inspect it & establish the thread pitch with a thread gauge at your local hardware store .
I'll guess that it will come up as a modern metric thread .
My guess is that you've got an item intended for the tourist trade , late 20th century .
I think it's possibly a depiction (i.e. - replica-ish) of an oil decanter .
Not including the handle assemblies , is it possible that this item was made of 3 pieces (top portion , main body & base) ?
I think I see a rolled joint between main body & top portion , which is why I ask .
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Welcome to the forum , tink .
The main body of your item appears to be one that a number of methods were used to produce , a 'fusion' if you will , of the specialized art of repousee (metal-forming from hammering out a flat sheet of metal ; from the inside of the item , to make highly detailed forms on the exterior of an item) & the rather crude skill of 'stamping' metal .... too crude to be considered 'engraving' (which is , generally , cutting away metal - not unlike wood carving) .
You could always remove one of the machine screws , to inspect it & establish the thread pitch with a thread gauge at your local hardware store .
I'll guess that it will come up as a modern metric thread .
My guess is that you've got an item intended for the tourist trade , late 20th century .
I think it's possibly a depiction (i.e. - replica-ish) of an oil decanter .
Not including the handle assemblies , is it possible that this item was made of 3 pieces (top portion , main body & base) ?
I think I see a rolled joint between main body & top portion , which is why I ask .
thank you so much for your help with this. no, it's one complete piece (not counting the removeable handles). i can definitely remove one of the screws to measure thread pitch.. what will thread pitch tell me? (i've never measured thread pitch before). i just wish i could successfully google something showing me something similar to mine. if this is a tourist trade piece where can i see pictures of anything similar. i know i'm a pain in the butt.. but you have NO idea how long (months) i've been looking this up.. lol.. thanks for your continued help. :)
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Seems like the bottom is soldered on , tink .
Thread pitch should sorta set your mind to ease , in regards to this item being 100's of years old .
Modern thread pitches = modern production .
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don't go anywhere! lol.. i'm almost finished loading 3 pictures of the screw i took off..
brb
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ok, the screw center is off center and has several tiny ridges (rings) all the way around the head/top part . (i hope you can see it in the pictures)..
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metalscrew3.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metalscrew2.jpg)
(http://i776.photobucket.com/albums/yy50/tinkabel72/metalscrew1.jpg)
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Thanks for all the effort on the extra images , tink .
In the 5th image from the bottom , in your original post , there appears to be a sorta zipper-appearing line , going up the length of the main body .
Is this possibly a soldered joint (I see it's indented , somewhat , in the upper stamping area) ?
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Thanks for all the effort on the extra images , tink .
In the 5th image from the bottom , in your original post , there appears to be a sorta zipper-appearing line , going up the length of the main body .
Is this possibly a soldered joint (I see it's indented , somewhat , in the upper stamping area) ?
the "zipper" appearance runs from the very top to the very bottom entirely. it doesn't look soldering it looks smashed like. it's very flat and almost un feelable yet it dips in in some areas along the seam. the undernearth part looks like the extra metal was bent/cut under the bottom by hand. any ideas on the screw pictures?
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As to the screws , I'd suggest you put them through a thread gauge & find out their pitch .
Can't really tell beans from images only , tink .
They could be 'standard'(U.S) , S.A.E. , Metric or Wentworth threads .... just don't try to force the machine screw through the gauge , since it appears to be brass & quite soft , as metals go .
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thanks for all your help RJoe... i guess it's off to the hardware store this weekend!....
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I think that despite there being machined screws early on, the two things to keep in mind are their availability and how common it is or is not to see them on a piece of any given age. For example, even if its not impossible for them to appear on a piece from 1820, the likelihood of it is very small. In the case of this one, I think I'd have to ask myself what is the likelihood that a guy in the middle east who is hand-fabricating his brass wares would have access to machined screws? Also I would expect to see much less uniformity on the slots especially. They are never in exactly the same place and you see them slightly to the left or the right. There's a lot more inconsistency. Here is an example from the back of my 1810 federal mirror. There are two screws that are very old, and the one in the middle which is a modern later addition.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Dining/FederalMirror5.jpg)
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That looks to me like something that was made in India. There are a lot of India Brass items/objects on the market.
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i don't know. i'm still baffled by it...lol.. i googled india brass jug, spent hours researching tourist trade metal jugs and can't seem to find anything remotely like mine. i have googled the suggested assyrian and babylonian and the pictures during that time period seem to match even the more noble king in a chair receiving gifts seem right on key. i'm not suggesting it's hundreds of years old but i think whoever created the jug had that time period in mind. my next step, as RJoe suggested, is to bring the screw to a local hardware store and find out the pitch. if confirmed "oldish" i will drive out of state (in my spare time) and bring it to an antique dealer in New Orleans. other then that, i'm basically clueless... thanks so much everybody for all your help with this. if someone is reading this post and has a clue to what this might be, please don't hesitate to contact me and put my mind at rest! lol..
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I would suggest it's European. likely to date from the middle of the 17 th century to maybe the 18th century. English furniture was commonly, carved with a story to tell.
The circle & cross is a sun cross. you all so have a man with long hair. likely to have been a wig which were worn in that time frame.
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Just do Like Joe said and check to see if the threads are any kind of modern standard. Old screws were made by individuals with individual non standard threads. They were made to work in the pieces produced by a particular shop, blacksmith, or factory etc. They would very seldom work in someone else's stuff. Standardization and interchangeable parts are one of the miracles of the mechanical revolution, and a fairly modern convenience. This should tell you what you need to know.
I personally stand by my earlier conclusion. I've seen older screws before, and these ones just look modern to me. I however, am no expert on the matter.
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The screws are just one factor.I believe later replacement. Old does not make it rare or valuable.
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Are the screws going into a threaded female part, or is there a nut securing it on the other side? Skinny is right, you can take modern screws to any hardware store and find a nut that will fit them in metric or English threads. If it is just an unthreaded hole, the screws could be a modern addition that isn't original to the piece. If they are modern threads and the piece has modern female threads tapped into it, that might indicate it was newer.
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Also on the female threads, what purpose to the serve? Are the holding on the base? If you take it apart, can you see any evidence that female threads could have been tapped into it at a later date because an old weld had broken?
Also adding to D&B's comment on age/value... Age may not mean value, but age does have a "cool factor"! ;)