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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: heavydude on January 17, 2010, 05:55:51 PM
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Has anybody ever seen anything like these.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
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Close ups to show the workmanship and detail.
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Those are amazing items. Looks like bone to me, glued and or nailed to some sort of surface. Have any ideal what they are glued and nailed on? Or are they hollow? I have not personnally seen the likes of these before but can't wait to see what shows up here about these. Welcome to the forum Heavydude and thanks for posting these wonderful items.
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I believe what you have is called bone marquetry. Here's a horse with an auction estimate of $2000-$3000!
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stuartholman.com/fall05/jpgs/zDSC_0437.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.stuartholman.com/fall05/cat8.html&usg=__Xbhe-4ydT5ijj456lYcMNtgrzsg=&h=175&w=175&sz=4&hl=en&start=22&sig2=FLZMyL0HlnPKI8k2M2Zkjw&tbnid=cTo4M68ks_5U0M:&tbnh=100&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbone%2Bcovered%2Bstatue%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D18&ei=jspTS-ueLY3ktAPmiIX-Aw (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stuartholman.com/fall05/jpgs/zDSC_0437.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.stuartholman.com/fall05/cat8.html&usg=__Xbhe-4ydT5ijj456lYcMNtgrzsg=&h=175&w=175&sz=4&hl=en&start=22&sig2=FLZMyL0HlnPKI8k2M2Zkjw&tbnid=cTo4M68ks_5U0M:&tbnh=100&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbone%2Bcovered%2Bstatue%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D18&ei=jspTS-ueLY3ktAPmiIX-Aw)
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Those are amazing items. Looks like bone to me, glued and or nailed to some sort of surface. Have any ideal what they are glued and nailed on? Or are they hollow? I have not personnally seen the likes of these before but can't wait to see what shows up here about these. Welcome to the forum Heavydude and thanks for posting these wonderful items.
Thanks for the response.
The lion (3 and 3a) is light weight, about 1 lb 10 oz. I'm guessing that the inside is probably light weight wood, possibly hollowed out. The others are also light weight but commensurate with their sizes.
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I believe what you have is called bone marquetry. Here's a horse with an auction estimate of $2000-$3000!
Thanks for naming the technique. That gives me a new way of looking for similar items.
The auction horse is almost 4' tall, big enough to ride, but mine is just curio cabinet size.
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Interesting! I was thinking some sort of ivory piece.
Learn something new every day!!!! This site is great!
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Interesting! I was thinking some sort of ivory piece.
I don't think it's ivory. Maybe faux ivory or some sort of synthetic.
I tried the hot pin test but couldn't melt a hole in it. That's not saying much since I had to heat the pin on an electric stove and wasn't sure it got hot enough.
The first picture is a close up of the visible grain and the second picture I got off the internet and it was identified as laminated bone. Doesn't really look like the same grain.
I've read that regular parallel grain is indicative of synthetic material.
Anyway, I'm not much concerned with what it's made of as much as where it came from, who made it, when it was made, and if there are other examples somewhere.
For all I know they could have been turned out by the thousands and sold to tourists for 5 bucks in a bazaar someplace.
Or someday I'll go on the Antiques Roadshow and get told they are worth hundreds of thousands.
Keep those comments coming
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Check out our recent posts on ivory and bone in the topic about my antique parasol. There is a lot of shared info on IDing bone ivory and celluloid. It is really hard to see but on ivory you will have a criss-crossing bi-directional grain. Bone is straight grain and you will see the little mini dark crack lines like I see on yours. Ultimately I found an antiques dealer who dealt in ivory to confirm my piece, but there are photos showing different examples of the grains. I think the info that helped me will help you too. Just run a search for parasol or go back two or three pages
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Check out our recent posts on ivory and bone in the topic about my antique parasol. There is a lot of shared info on IDing bone ivory and celluloid. It is really hard to see but on ivory you will have a criss-crossing bi-directional grain. Bone is straight grain and you will see the little mini dark crack lines like I see on yours. Ultimately I found an antiques dealer who dealt in ivory to confirm my piece, but there are photos showing different examples of the grains. I think the info that helped me will help you too. Just run a search for parasol or go back two or three pages
I found your parasol topic and read all the posts. I was already pretty much convinced that my pieces aren't ivory and one of the websites seems to have confirmed it:
http://www.antiquegamblingchips.com/distinguish_iv_bon_cel.htm
I have a bone letter opener that has the dark spots common to the bone chips in that website's photo.
My mosaic figurines don't share the pitting that bone has. Nor do they have the cross hatched grain that you describe on your parasol and are present on the ivory poker chips.
My figurines do, however, share the parallel grain similar to that of the plastic poker chip and dice.
The only thing stopping me from a final conclusion of some sort of plastic is that I couldn't get the hot pin test to work.
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It looks to me to be made from some sort of seashell , the close up seems to have shading that reminds me of shells. Really nice pieces I would contact a really good auction house and send photos. good luck let us know what you discover.
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It looks to me to be made from some sort of seashell , the close up seems to have shading that reminds me of shells. Really nice pieces I would contact a really good auction house and send photos. good luck let us know what you discover.
Thank you.
Seashells never occurred to me. I found a seashell guide on the internet. There do appear to be some seashells that have similar grain pattern. I'll check further.
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Look at these at http://www.goantiques.com/detail,chinese-bone-ivory,136513.html , very similar in design and construction. I agree that it does look like shell because of the pinkish tint on some 'scales'. They are very neat. Do you think the glue globs are newer repairs or part of the original construction? I have never seen anything like them.
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Look at these at http://www.goantiques.com/detail,chinese-bone-ivory,136513.html , very similar in design and construction. I agree that it does look like shell because of the pinkish tint on some 'scales'. They are very neat.
Thanks for the link. That's amazing. I've been looking for comparable items on and off for two years and this is the first time I've seen anything that came remotely close to mine. Certainly looks like the same technique of gluing small pieces to a carved figurine.
Do you think the glue globs are newer repairs or part of the original construction?
Not repairs. The photo of the small section of "scales" has been enlarged 5 times from a 12 megapixel photo so the minute details are right in your face. When you look at the following photo you see that the gluing was mostly a little sloppy and many of the "scale" joints look like that. But when you see the piece at arms length or on a shelf, all that stuff blends in and doesn't really show. Anyway, it adds to its "character".
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I have been so in awe at this thread. I was in debate between hand carved pieces and Hobby bead store items, but after carefully looking I'm sure the later is not the case. Just looking at the Lion is stunning. The detail of the carved line just above the eye. Is the other side the same? The tongue the teeth and etc. Imagine the amount of work went into these items. Kinda curious about the horse with the nailed look about it. Then we come to the glue, sure is not elmers. Kinda looks like it hardened into a crytal or very hard clear surface. Any ideals going in anyones head about the type of glue or adhesion used? All in all I just really like the items of this thread, you have very wonderful pieces there. Hope you and all of us here on the forum finds the answers to this one.
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I have been so in awe at this thread. I was in debate between hand carved pieces and Hobby bead store items, but after carefully looking I'm sure the later is not the case. Just looking at the Lion is stunning. The detail of the carved line just above the eye. Is the other side the same? The tongue the teeth and etc. Imagine the amount of work went into these items.
Yes, both sides of the face are the same. Here's a front view. Looks like somebody's happy pet. He's missing an upper tooth on one side. I just noticed that. There's a hole where the tooth was affixed in the distant past. May have always been that way.
Regardless of what these things are made of, the workmanship and attention to detail is amazing.
Kinda curious about the horse with the nailed look about it.
The prancing horse and the scepter both have the "tiles" nailed to the figurine but I'm guessing that it's for decorative effect and that the "tiles" are also glued.
Then we come to the glue, sure is not elmers. Kinda looks like it hardened into a crytal or very hard clear surface. Any ideals going in anyones head about the type of glue or adhesion used?
I suppose if I ever find out where and when these were made, that would be a clue as to the type of glue used.
All in all I just really like the items of this thread, you have very wonderful pieces there. Hope you and all of us here on the forum finds the answers to this one.
Thanks. I didn't realize my items would garner so much attention. Now that they have, I'll provide a little history.
My parents (both deceased) were avid antiquers in the NYC area from the 1960s through the 1990s. When my Dad got sick in the late 90s they slowed it down quite a bit and, after he died in 2001, my Mom only occasionally did a flea market now and then. During their heyday they did very well and their acquisitions and sales ranged from inexpensive knick-knacks to an occasional high end item.
My mother acquired the figurines at some time during the 1970s from a private party and was told they were ivory. Whether they were are weren't wasn't a real issue, even then, because the craftsmanship and uniqueness was worth the few hundred that she paid for the set.
She was always reluctant to put them up for sale because if they were made of ivory there was a possibility that it could be of the illegal kind and she had no documentation on them. So she displayed them in her curio cabinet for the rest of her life. When she died in 2007 my siblings and I divvied them up. I got the lion and scepter, my brother got the prancing horse, and my sisters each got one of the matching horses.
In 2008 I spend some time making inquiries to dealers and auction houses that I found on the internet. Didn't get anywhere and put the issue aside. Forums like this didn't occur to me then, but since then I've been involved in other types of forums and have become familiar with how they work.
Well, it rained yesterday and today here in Phoenix and I was looking for a rainy day activity. My lion caught my eye and I decided to get back into it, so here I am.
I think I've made some good progress so far and, at the same time, provided interesting exhibits for the enjoyment of the members.
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Look at these pieces http://atlantaantiquegallery.com/i-911522-okimono-elephant.html and http://atlantaantiquegallery.com/i-911510-okimono-elephant.html The second elephant really looks similar to the quality of your figures. This may give you some indication of age, value, and origin (Okimono is Japanese) if the dealer's description is accurate. The fact that there are virtually no examples available on the internet would lead one to believe these types of figures are scarce.
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Good going wayward, sure looks like the same maker. I would say style, but would have to agree with wayward on the fact they are a scarce item. With that much attention to detail, the artist was well practriced. Could be looking at a case of semi-famous folk art, one that is made by just a few Artist if not one and yet not enough to make it a craft of the time. Sounds like a great lead "Okimono".
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Look at these pieces http://atlantaantiquegallery.com/i-911522-okimono-elephant.html and http://atlantaantiquegallery.com/i-911510-okimono-elephant.html The second elephant really looks similar to the quality of your figures. This may give you some indication of age, value, and origin (Okimono is Japanese) if the dealer's description is accurate. The fact that there are virtually no examples available on the internet would lead one to believe these types of figures are scarce.
Wow!
How did you find those?
They certainly appear to be the identical style and technique of my pieces. The elephant with the nailed tiles resembles the prancing horse and the scepter. The elephant without the nails is very much like the lion and the pair of smaller horses. The close up shot of the tiles on that elephant appears identical to the size and shape of the tiles on the lion.
I've emailed the gallery for higher resolution photos and additional information.
Meantime, a little googling reveals that Okimono is a Japanese term for objects that are displayed in front of religious altars or in other special places of setting objects of appreciation, but does not describe the technique of making such objects. An image search for Okimono brought up countless examples of figurines carved from single pieces of ivory, but nothing resembling the mosaic tile technique.
While it's gratifying (and magic) that the two elephants were found, I'm still looking into the origin of this particular technique: the where, when and who.
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Heavydude, happy to help. I Googled 'ivory tiles figurine' and searched many sites before the Atlanta Antique Gallery site popped up and since they had Asian ivory figures, I went through all their pages and whoila! the elephants were on one page. I think one would have to talk with an Asian ivory antique expert to find out the further information you are looking for. These figures are just not out there on the web so their production must have been really, really low or even folk art as ironlord suggested.
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Thanks, everybody.
I'll be back when I get a response from the dealer with the two elephants.