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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: hosman321 on February 01, 2010, 09:15:44 PM
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So, we bought this musket tonight. I'm not even going to say what we paid because if it's a totally ridiculous amount, I'd rather not have my heart broken just yet. :)
We can't find any info about these "band" things that are on the weapon. The owner said they have been on there for as long as it has been in his family, which has been many years. They are terrible, stapled onto the wood over two parts. They are very old bands, very primitive style. I took a flashlight to these metal bands and I can barely make out that some sort of paper was over the bands. One part of the paper reads part of a word "ARK." Another part has part of a triangle. What is the purpose of these old metal bands? Was the weapon falling apart long ago and they hold it together? They seem pointless.
The gun is apparently inoperable, the trigger sticks a little and he said it has never been fired since they have had it. It's very dirty but we don't want to touch it. We like all of the grime. :)
Any info is appreciated, we don't really know much about it!
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Hosman, is this yours?
http://www.gunsamerica.com/988251149/Guns/Rifles/Military-Misc-Rifles-US/Civil-War/Springfield_Model_1842_musket.htm
You can increase the size of the pic and also zoom in. I see it has those bands as well, but not up as close to the trigger end
as yours.
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Sapphire,
That one looks like it has the normal bands on it that are supposed to be there. Ours has one of those bands, one is missing. But ours has 2 home made-type bands that are definitely not original or normal. Thank you for looking though, I appreciate the help. :)
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Here is a blueprint for a Springfield model 1848:
(http://www.mek-schuetzen.de/Blueprints/1848SpringfieldMusket.JPG)
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Hi hosman321 .
Saw the same one you got (?) on CL in Tacoma .
Hey , if you like it , what the heck !
Its a 45/70 , right ?
If I were you , I'd check & see if there's powder/ball/patch(es) etc. in the barrel .
You don't want to have that kind of old stuff in there !
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Here is one ending at auction in 22 days with an auction estimate listed at the top if you want to see it. This one is described as being in "relic" condition.
http://www.icollector.com/Found-with-above-lot-Springfield-model-1848-69-caliber-percussion-musket-in-relic-condition-with_i8787091 (http://www.icollector.com/Found-with-above-lot-Springfield-model-1848-69-caliber-percussion-musket-in-relic-condition-with_i8787091)
But regardless of value... think of the history in it!!!! VERY cool whatever you paid!!
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The metal bands hold the barrel to the stock firmly as these guns were usually military and took quite a beating and were also used to hold the ramrod. Also one of the front bands would have a metal attachment for the shoulder sling and the other attachment for the sling would have been in front of the trigger guard (that looks like it is there). The bands on your gun look homemade and may have been put there to strengthen the stock. The front one is right where the stock is cracked. Your gun is also missing the percussion nipple block and the gun is inoperable without this part. It looks like a very historic gun to hang on your wall. I am more familiar with the 1873 trapdoor Springfield which I used to load and shoot for fun. It was a blackpowder cartridge breechloader whereas yours is a muzzle loader. Enjoy it and think of all the history that gun has been through.
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Thanks for all the info everyone. So someone probably added these extra bands just make it stronger as a precaution? Would something like this have been done in it's early days (maybe during a war) or are they more modern? It was defintely done by someone that didn't mind of they did damage to the gun. The staples themselves seem to have caused the crack. At first I thought they repaired the crack in the wood with the band. But the cracks are actually coming from where the staples go into the wood. So they actually caused a lot of damage. We're happy with it, even though it won't ever fire. Unless we were to repair it. It'll just hang on a wall and be admired for it's history and we'll have to imagine where it's been.
That CL ad is the same one we bought, he just hasn't removed his ad yet. :)
Oh and yes, it's a 45-70. Also, my husband and I are having a bet about whether or not this says 1843 or 1848. If I win I get another cylinder for my phonograph. Is that a 3 or an 8?
And tales, that auction estimate says $400-$900 for one that seems to be in about the same condition as ours. Except our metal and wood is in pretty good shape compared to his. We paid the low end of that estimate, so I'm happy. Thanks for taking the time to look things up guys, I was just really curious about those old stapled bands.
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A 45-70 is a breechloading cartridge gun. This is not a 45-70. 45-70 originally stood for a .45 caliber bullet (barrel bored and rifled for .45) in a brass case that held 70 grains of blackpowder. This is a muzzleloader hence the need for a ramrod and a percussion cap. If the staples caused the crack I would assume they added the bands to strengthen their original staple repair.
"The Model 1842 Percussion Musket was produced in both Armories from 1844 until 1855, and was a .69 caliber smoothbore with a 42 inch barrel. Springfield produced 172,000, and Harper's Ferry manufactured 103,000. This weapon was the first Armory produced Musket with completely interchangeable parts, and was the last smoothbore arm made in .69 caliber. About 14,000 of these muskets were rifled by the armories between 1856 and 1859.
The shape of an American Musket was fairly standard from 1816 until 1842, having a full walnut stock, a long barrel of 42 inches, and three barrel bands. The rifles were generally shorter and of smaller caliber. The adoption of an American Rifle-Musket was a compromise in caliber, with the large, "three-band" design persisting in the Model 1855 Percussion Rifle-Musket."
If your barrel is a smoothbore, you have a musket. If it is rifled, you have a rifle. Your date appears to be 1843. A goood loupe will show you if that last number is a 3 or an 8 but the internet pics look like it is a 3.
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Honestly firing an antique weapon is dangerous business. Unless it has been inspected and OK'd by an expert. There can be all kinds of metal fatigue going on that breaks loose under the stress of firing and then you have the possibility of death or injury. Firing period weaponry is a lot of fun and there are all kinds of muzzleloader clubs you can join, shooting events and all kinds of things with the period replicas. Personally I think its better to fire replicas to get the feel of what it was like and to retire, appreciate and admire the antiques as testiments to history.
I have the greatest respect for the guys that had to go into battles with the old flintlocks, now that I know how tempermental they can be. I can only imagine what it was like trying to reload, clearing misfires etc., all while someone is shooting at you! The percussion ones like yours are a whole lot more reliable.
Wayward or someone else correct me if I'm off on this, but I believe if it had been a military issued rifle it would have been marked as such with the regiment and state. However in the south especially things were a lot more haphazard, for example the uniforms if they existed at all could be homemade, often died with walnut, hence the term "butternuts" to refer to the Confederate soldiers. I THINK (again please correct me if I'm off) that some soldiers would bring their own rifles they were comfortable with. But without any known provenance I don't think there is any way to tell if it ever saw military action or if it was used to put food on the table. Even so, just imagine being out in the woods with your belly growling, taking aim and bringing down dinner!
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I agree with you tales, not only was this gun difficult to reload, it's just so heavy! When I actually lift it and aim at something, it's amazing how hard it is to aim at a target with all that weight.
I wish I knew if this thing ever saw a battle, maybe you're right about the regiment or something needing to be stamped on there. The only other markings are an eagle with a shield holding an olive branch with arrows and "US" under it and another "U.S." stamp. Is that just a Springfield mark or a military mark? Looks kind of military-ish. :)
I'll keep looking at sites to see if it did need a military stamp in order to be in a battle/war. we're going to go to Cabela's tonight to find some hooks or a rack.
Ooo I just looked this up. You know the really old paper/sticker I mentioned earlier...with the triangle and partial work "ARK". I looked it up and I found this picture from the Arkansas Regiment. 3rd Infantry. Cool! Maybe it was used in the war!
My husband suggested that maybe the bands were used to mark the gun with the regiment. Maybe a soldier did it? Someone without the actual machine to stamp it onto the metal. So, they put metal bands with these regiment markings. Makes sense since the bands seem so pointless. And maybe someone did bring their own gun into the war so it wasn't stamped properly. Then again, maybe a civilian did it? Someone at home? No idea, but I'm surprised still.
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Man what a great looking gun!!
As someone else has already said, what ever you paid is AOK, because that gun is terrific looking.
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Unfortunately the history of the weapon will never be known, the stickers/paper are post civil war add ons, perhaps it was used for reinacting at some point, sometimes they were converted into shotguns for hunting, enjoy it as is and dont shoot it.
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The paper/stickers may be post war but they are definitely extremely old. I am estimating 100 years or more. I don't know if they did re-enactments that long ago, they probably did. They definitely were not put on within the past 50 years because the owner has had it that long and he said they look just the same as they did back then. I contacted Sean from Pawn Stars and he said he's going to help me figure it out. I'll let you guys know what he says. I am attaching pics of the paper. I have also been looking at a lot of pics online. Soldiers in the war did all kinds of strange things to personalize each weapon. I haven't seen this exactly but a lot of things close to it.
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You know I wonder if those metal bands were recycled out of something else and those are the original product labels on the tins?
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My guess is simply that a former owner did a bit of decoupage to protect/decorate/personalize the weapon .
Perhaps it was part of a rememberance of a former owner , attached after the weapon was retired ?
(The remnants of the paper seem to illustrate some boys in a scrap of some kind ......)
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Hosman 321 - A hundred years ago, you're right, there were probably no re-enactments, but on certain anniversary dates, memorial celebrations were held on the field (s) of battle. Usually 25 year anniversary, fifty year and so on. I was fishing on Mine Creek one morning close to the battlefield and on my way back to my car saw something that had washed up out of the dirt. Picked it up, it was a .45-70 BLANK casing. Went home, got my metal detector, came back and found seven more in a straight line about six feet apart. I then knew these came from a ceremonial firing squad because they were blanks. Almost a certainty they were fired from the 1873 Trapdoor Springfield.
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Great story Jondar. Neat that you were able to locate them still in place like that and to be able to understand what you had found! VERY cool! There are some neat old historic photos of the old Civil War reunions and newspapers would often carry stories about these reunions. I wonder if the archives of the local paper might have an old article?
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sevenseas - I did do some research on this at the Kansas State Historical Museum and came upon a newpaper article from a Pleasanton, Kansas newpaper where a ceremony honoring Civil War soldiers was held in (I think) 1889. This would have been twenty-five years after the battle. No mention of a firing squad tho. Pleasanton is a small town a mile or two from the battlefield and named after General Alfred Pleasonton (sic) a pretty famous Civil War general who participated in that battle. Captain Frederick Benteen, the so called hero of the Battle of the Little Big Horn also participated there as a commanding officer of a Missouri Cavalry Regiment whose performance was a little less than inspiring. No fault of Benteen's tho.
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Jondar, I thought you would find this quote from an article describing a Civil War reunion of interest. I found it while researching my ancestors who were in Rogersville TN during the Civil War. While I realize that in modern times the Confederate flag is regarded as a symbol of oppression, it is clear that it had a much different meaning to the soldiers who fought under it, most of whom were not slave owners. It is an interesting look back at one of these reunions:
"...In the middle eighties there was a Confederate reunion at Rogersville, Tennessee, where I was living at that time. This was an East Tennessee affair, but many soldiers of the old Confederacy gathered there for the event. The speaker of the occasion was an eloquent Presbytertian minister, an ex-rebel soldier of the fearless type, Rev. Lynn Bachman, D.D. He spoke from the porch of the Old Female College building at the foot of the knobs east of town. Toward the close of his eloquent address the speaker referred most feelingly to the old flag - how the soldiers loved it and fought for it - how many had died under its folds, and how many were maimed for life in its defense, many of whom sat before him there with empty sleeves or dangling trousers leg. In this strain he talked a while and then drew from under his coat, a Confederate flag. It had been riddled with bullets, until there was not much of it left. He spread that flag before the crowd. Many of the old Rebs shouted. Many wept, and some laughed and some yelled. It was like the climax of an oldtime camp meeting when great jubilation was entirely in order and many joined in. Yes, the true soldier loved his flag."
(ROGERSVILLE REVIEW, August 25, 1932)
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Yes, and those that bad-mouth that flag are just trying to stir up trouble.
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I posted our musket on a guns forum. Here's what they had to say so far, if anyone cares to follow.
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Is it just me or is the link invisible?
(Didn't someone say that about the Emperor's clothes once?!)
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Can't you see the link, Tales? I can see it plain as day. ;D
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Hosman, this is an old post but now that I have read it again, the pic #13 really piques my interest. Have you had this gun physically looked at by a gunsmith? There is a thick brass liner? where the percussion nipple block should go. This gun cannot be fired and I do not see any hole going into the breech end of the barrel, so I am thinking the brass block totally makes this gun inoperable. Was this gun used in reenactments or something?
From Feb 2 post that i think I did not answer: And talesof, usually there are government inspector marks on the gun and guys did bring their own weapons into battle but guns were also restocked over the years.
I would really like to read the link that hosman did or did not post that some of us can't see to read. Emperor? What Emperor?
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Oops, wonder where the link went. Let's try that again.
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=82075
I haven't taken it to a gunsmith, there's one a few towns over that deals in antique weapons. But it always wreaks of pot and alcohol so I'd rather not get advice from them lol
I'll find one, I guess I've just been lazy and reluctant to haul that huge thing around town.
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Link works great, hosman. I still do not see how the gun could ever fire as there is no way for the ignition flash to get from a percussion cap to the powder inside the barrel. The date is definitely 1843 on that lock. The second "8" does not look like the first but more like a "3" with almost closed curves. JMO.
I have owned, fired, cleaned, and taken apart percussion muzzleloaders so I am familar with the lock firing mechanism.
"This gun with the 1843 lock dating and 1845 barrel dating falls within the Mexican War period as well as the Civil War period." http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=7609
Some pics follow
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Item No.: 4738 Price : $1,595.00
Item : FINE ATTIC SPRINGFIELD US MODEL 1816 PERCUSSION CONVERSION MUSKET
Description :
.69 Caliber Smoothbore Percussion Conversion of Model 1816 Flintlock Musket. This was done by the "Arsenal" Method of putting a cone into the barrel and replacing the Flint Hammer with a large percussion hammer. Nice light brown smooth patina overall. Crisp markings with 1837 dated lock and barrel. Lock needs two flat fill screws for filling the old flintlock spring holes, otherwise a fine nearly perfect lock. Fine smooth iron furniture including the original sling swivels and button tipped ram rod. Smooth bore, excellent mechanics. Excellent oil finished stock with clear oval Springfield cartouche at the left flat. These muskets served throughout the Civil War and in tight quarters, loaded with buck and ball they were devastating.
Item No.: 4777 Price : $1,895.00
Item : FINE HARPERS FERRY US MODEL 1816 PERCUSSION CONVERSION MUSKET
Description :
.69 Caliber Smoothbore US Military Musket. Arsenal conversion to percussion. 1841 Dated lock and barrel tang. Thhis was one of the last of Harpers Ferry M1816's. Crisp markings.Smooth steel gray patina overall, Excellent oil finished stock with sharp edges on lock mortise and flats. "JAS" inspectors initials on left flat. Fine smooth bore and strong, excellent mechanics. Original sling swivels and ram rod
Both from
http://www.csarms.com/
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Hosman, you have a great piece of history. The musket you have is a percussion conversion similar to the last 2 pics I posted. There should be a "nipple" on the top part of the barrel where the hammer would fall. It is not evident in any of your pics so either it is missing or is not visible in your pics. Your gun originally started out as a Model 1816 flintlock musket and was converted to percussion, probably in 1843 (the lock date) or shortly thereafter. It could have been used in the Civil War, Mexican War, or no war (sold as surplus and used by civilians). Rifles in nice shape are going for $1600-1900 so yours at $400 or so was good.
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My husband and I keep going back and forth on the "3" or "8" thing. lol
In your second picture, there's a date on the top. Mine doesn't have a date there. Where the date would be appears to be cut out and it's a plain piece of metal in it's place. But where it shows the markings, in the same pic, I found a tiny "V" on my musket with other marks below it. Just like the pic. I can see the "V" but the other marks may be pitting. There is so much grime and so much pitting on mine that it's hard to tell. I never would have seen them. I really don't want to clean it. I don't know what I'm doing. I suppose I could use a Q-tip though and clean the tiny area with the markings. But I wouldn't know what to use.
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Wow, thanks for the links wayward. I'm really excited that it's older than I thought it was. I will post pics on the firearms forum of pics of markings and the pics you showed. So, the little "V" and other markings on the barrel are from an 1816 or are they from later ones? Just want to make sure those aren't later because then the weapon wouldn't be 1816, right?
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I do not think the marks will add $ to your musket. When these muskets were converted, parts were replaced and replaced parts would have had different dates and marks. They used what they had at these arsenals to update flintlock muskets to the more modern percussion cap. When breechloading guns came into use, muzzleloaders fell way by the wayside.
Your gun started life as an 1816 model but after modifications it no longer is. It is the date on the lock (1843 or 1848).
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Congratulations Hosman!! That is WAAAAAAY cool!
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Cool , hosman !
Glad to see the shootin' iron question(s) answered !
If it were mine , I'd swab out the barrel with some nitro solvent & be certain that there's no gunpowder residue in it (very corrosive to metal) & check to be sure the barrel is EMPTY (with a flashlight shone thru the percussion cap nipple) .
A good semi-regular oiling following cleaning should help your gun to protect itself for years to come ( I usually just treat the metals on antique guns the same as modern weapons ) , esp. in our "dry & arid" portion of the PacificNorthwest .
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Blackpowder is best dissolved with hot water, then followed by an oily cloth to swab the bore. Easiest way to do this was to run a surgical tube over the nipple to a bucket of hot tap water, then put a wet patch down the barrel with the ramrod and running it up and down the barrel causing a suction of hot water to be sucked in and out of the bucket up into the barrel. Change out the water in the bucket until it runs clean. Works like a charm. Run some dry patches down the barrel until dry, then run an oily one for the last swab.
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Thanks for the advice guys! They have a few more interesting points on the other forum, if anyone cares to see.
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?p=680612&posted=1#post680612
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Thanks for posting the link to your thd in that forum , hosman321 .
Interesting stuff !
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Ha! Hosman!! I was just thinking about your musket. Just I found a couple of bayonet’s for sale...
Interesting thread..
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I just want to know what the heck it is already, ya know? Did someone slap a bunch of parts together for a parade prop at the turn of the century or was it really used in the civil war? Did it really start as an 1816? Sigh. I bought a bayonet for it months ago and it doesn't fit. Maybe someone on that site will trade me for one that will fit. I'm going to ask them if the bayonet looks like a repro or an original. But not yet, one thing at a time lol.
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If it were a prop it would not have a hole drilled through from the pan (where the powder is sparked) through to the inside of the gun where the packed powder is ignited behind the ball. Firing reproductions are very easy to identify as repros. The just don't look old. I think you've got the real McCoy, but my experience in this area is limited to a handful of repros and authentic antiques. I would suggest taking it to your local gunshop and making it very clear that you don't want to sell, just ID it.
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This is totally my opinion and not based on (much) fact but here goes... If you read about the history of reenactments on Wiki (which is always right lol) you find that they happened early on by the Veterans of the war - then not much until turn of the Century and then not popular until the 1960's CW Centenial (I posted the Wiki info below if interested). Keep in mind we didn't celebrate the war afterwards like the Revolution when reenactments were common. Most Veterans were tired, cronically ill and many in the South were broke not to mention we were stunned by a Presidential assassignation and many of the promises made to the South (by Lincoln) were not even close to being honored... There was not much reason to reenact anything especially by someone in Alabama.
Not saying it didn't happen just saying it seems more likely that the gun was used in the war then repurposed for a reenactment… but I could be wrong. I just don’t think they were common.
From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War_reenactment
Reenacting the American Civil War began even before the real fighting had ended. Civil War veterans recreated battles as a way to remember their fallen comrades and to teach others what the war was all about. The Great Reunion of 1913, celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Battle of Gettysburg, was attended by more than 50,000 Union and Confederate veterans, and included reenactments of elements of the battle, including Pickett's Charge. Modern reenacting is thought to have begun during the 1961–1965 Civil War centennial commemorations. Reenacting grew in popularity during the 1980s and 1990s, due in large part to the success of the 125th Anniversary reenactment near the original Manassas battlefield, which was attended by more than 6,000 reenactors. That year, Time magazine estimated that there were more than 50,000 reenactors in the U.S.
In 1998, the 135th anniversary re-enactment of the Battle of Gettysburg took place near the original battlefield. There have been several estimates on the number of participants, but it is widely agreed that it was the largest re-enactment ever held anywhere in the world, with between 30,000 and 41,000 re-enactors participating. This event was watched by about 50,000 spectators.
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Thank you for the info and opinion oceans! A reenactment weapon would explain the hodge podge of parts and the confusion everyone is having. I appreciate everyone's time and opinions! I certainly know nothing about muskets so I am learning a lot. The other forum is getting me excited thinking it's a confederate musket that was converted. I guess confederate weapons are more rare. But they haven't responded in a couple days so I don't know. Not that it matters much but here's a pic of where the bands are. I just realized that my description wasn't clear so thought I'd post. Thanks again everyone, I'll post if they say something exciting. Oh, and someone on the other forum mentioned that it could be a Bess conversion. How would I ever know if it was a Brown Bess??
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I am dying to tell this story - and it's a bit off topic but here goes... One of my GGGpa's was a Union Soldier (Capt). He was in Richmond after the fall. He wrote a letter to the State of Maine detailing some of his service. He mentioned that the catridge boxes they used had the initials VMM stamped on them and the ladies would walk by and say those initials stood for Very Mean Men!!
Make me laugh every time I think about it!!
But back to the subject... Most of the comments are going over my head with regards to parts and their use but I would bet you have the real deal unless that Alabama paper was put on there later. My thought is that if it was put on later for purpose of reenactment, it would be in much better condition...
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lol your story was very on-subject! I really, really need to do a geneology and find out my family history. My mom and I started one with a geneology lady at a church but we only got back to about 1900 or so. Didn't learn much. I'd love to find out if any of my relatives served in the civil war or even the revolutionary war. But I know nothing about geneology and I'm no good at research. :P
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If you like you can PM me a name, place of residence and approx date and I can probably find out something from Census records. Getting to the Civil War is (usually) easy. The Rev War can be difficult. I have one from the Rev War but for the past 15 years I can't get past him...Learned alot about history trying tho!
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Thank you oceans! I sent you a private message but I don't know if it went through. When I go to my outbox it's empty so I'm not sure. :-\
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I have been watching....and reading.
My 2 cents....believe it is an original with modifications due to use.
As to the value, believe that a hands on by a knowledgeable early firearms individual......
Beautiful piece!!!!
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Agree with KC. Repros are not made like this. I'd bet my bottom dollar it's authentic. FYI if you guys haven't done so already, you can pick up the military records of ancestors from both the Civil War and the Rev War for a very small fee on http://www.footnote.com (http://www.footnote.com) I've done this for several ancestors and it had been well worth the fee of about $11 for access to the site.
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Oceans is amazing! What a generous person for helping me on my road to my ancestry!
The good news is you can now legitamately celebrate St Patty’s Day!!! Woo Hoo… Your 5th Great Grandmother was named Elizabeth Maria Maxifield. She was born about 1754 in Ireland She married John Dawson. He was born 4 Jun 1749 in Paul, Cromwell, England. At some point he immigrated to America but I don’t know when. They both lived and died in Greene Co, New York. John died in 1818 and Elizabeth in 1848. You have lots of longevity in your family!
John may have been here for the Rev War or maybe not and he could have served on either side (being from England and all). He needs researching. If he did serve for the States (and serve long enough) he and/or Elizabeth probably would have received a pension so I would start by searching Rev Pension records on the net. Even if they didn’t get a pension they probably would have applied for it.
They had a son Richard b. 1797 who is listed on a family record as being born in CN so include that state in your search… Richard and his family eventually moved to Iowa where he was one of the founders of Clinton Co. He married Millie Pearsall.
Richard and Millie had a son James N. Dawson. James was b in 1820 in Greene Co, NY (so maybe his father never lived in CN?). He m. Arsilla Hays. They would be your 3rd Great Grandparents. There was a tell-tale gap in the births of their children from 1861 to 1868 (if memory serves) and that usually means….
Yup! Civil War!!
Name: James Dawson
Residence: North Liberty, Iowa
Age at enlistment: 42
Enlistment Date: 20 Sep 1862
Rank at enlistment: 3rd Sergt
State Served: Iowa
Survived the War?: Yes
Service Record: Enlisted in Company I, Iowa 6th Cavalry Regiment on 02 Feb 1863.
Promoted to Full 2nd Sergeant on 01 May 1865.
Mustered out on 17 Oct 1865 at Sioux City, IA.
Promoted to Full 1st Sergeant on 11 May 1865.
Birth Date: abt 1820
Sources: Roster & Record of Iowa Soldiers in the War of Rebellion
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Super awesome! My great (x4 or 5?) grandfather served in the British military in the revolutionary war! He had only one child, which would not have been born had he been executed. Then, my entire family would not exist! One grandfather that fought against America and one that later fought for it.
http://books.google.com/books?id=YckUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA131&dq=%22john+dawson%22+maxifield&hl=en&ei=ayLGTKmVCIXWtQP8ytCADQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Another grandfather (John Dawson's son) was the master of the Dewitt Masonic Lodge in the mid 1800's. Learning a lot and still putting it together, but super excited. Little confusing for me but I'll learn. Thanks again oceans!
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Hehehe your welcome... He was your 5th great gpa and he had 9 kids eventually but whose counting. You still wouldn't have been here and it's a funny story when you think about it. How many people would have the nerve to cold cock a superior officer and have to to desert as result...
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Geeze 9 kids. I've got a lot of learning to do. Still soaking it in. :P With what I am learning from you, maybe I will figure out how to research my grandfather's side. But gotta get my feet wet first! :)