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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: talesofthesevenseas on March 12, 2010, 12:58:30 AM
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This came up on Craigslist tonight. I thought you guys might like to give it a go. Maybe we can help this guy out. Does anyone know what he has here?
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/atq/1640260527.html (http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/atq/1640260527.html)
Here is what is posted on C-list:
(http://images.craigslist.org/3n53k83o75T85Pa5Rba3b20c4e48cd40b16be.jpg)
(http://images.craigslist.org/3k63m33p75T45P75R1a3b8874556f565017d2.jpg)
(http://images.craigslist.org/3n33md3l55T95Pc5R5a3b28a9a57ffb4c1db4.jpg)
(http://images.craigslist.org/3m03p43lb5T75P75R9a3b9cee28f0409714ae.jpg)
Can you please help me?
I found this in an old abandoned house we used as a
neighborhood Army fort ( smoking camp hehe)
when I was about 8 or 9 . The old guy that had lived there died years before
I have been carrying this thing off and on , trying to figure out
What this was , for over 50 years
It does not appear to be incomplete or broken anywhere.
It is non-magnetic and the plating is wearing off
The chain is connected to the inside of the box and when the V is placed
on the rubber Pad the box is 100% full.
There are NO markings anywhere
I know it is of no value--BUT
I have got to know What the heck this is- before I CROAK
The older I get –the more I just gotta know and get it off
my Kick the Bucket List
I wish I would have left this thing alone 50+ years ago
Karma is paying me back for swiping it 50 years ago from the old house
With the internet, I might finally get a clue- What this thing is
Rich Mosman
e-mail: RLM456@aol.com
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This really makes no sense but judging from its' size and the fact the chain with leaf thing is fixed to the box, I am going to guess a bookmark.
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The chain is connected to the inside of the box and when the V is placed
on the rubber Pad the box is 100% full.
Well now, my guess is that it is a Seal for making wax impressions on Legal or Official documents .... because of:
1. The Crown on the case signifies Royalty or an Official of importance.
2. The rubber pad is to prevent it from “jingling” when carried on one’s person.
3, The Wreath emblem (Seal) is affixed to a chain so that it can’t be dropped, lost, etc., but primarily so that one can extract it from the wax after the Seal’s impression has been made.
To wit:
Identification
From ancient parchment documents with wax impressions to court papers and patriotic images, seals imprint and decorate official documents. Any object that physically seals an item with a unique image or imprint is a seal. A more modern seal is an official ink stamp or an image actually imprinted onto the material itself.
Purpose
Seals used by governments, courts and legal entities show a formal procedure was followed, and that the document was properly acknowledged or witnessed. Further, because seals are unique to the authorizing agency, they prove the authenticity of a given document--it couldn't have been issued by anyone else. http://www.ehow.com/facts_5676057_seal-legal-document_.html (http://www.ehow.com/facts_5676057_seal-legal-document_.html)
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Possibly some Masonic ritual item with the crown and amaranth or laurel wreath?
Order of the Amaranth image is shown...
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Hey look at the lower part of the wreath- Does that look like two hooks where a little sword might sit across the wreath?
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Hard to tell from the pics provided but I think the two ball posts? are going the wrong way for a sword to sit. I wonder if there are any markings on the back of the wreath object? Maybe O of A or something in Swedish. The Order had its' start in Sweden.
Just another guess to ponder on a little object of wonderment.
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Sounds reasonable Cogar. Maybe the fact of not being totally flat has something to do with it being used to seal a rolled document.Just guessing.
Interesting item and would love to know for sure.
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I sure wish I could find a similar example. I'm finding nothing quite like this.
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Hey Talesof - why don't you send him a note back to come to this site (or one of us can!)!.
Ask him if he can post a pic of the back of the wreath and a better close up of the wreath! Also, does the rubber piece come out? There might be a mark behind it. He doesn't specify if there is a mark on the back side of the box!
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I am with you, 7seas, there is nothing out there like this. The object is chained to the lid and the box does not look like it should be closed with the chained object out. The chained object appears to look like a half-laurel wreath with a slight hook on one side. It would be nice to know what this laurel wreath object is made of...cast pot metal, silver, silverplate, plated brass, plated steel, etc. Is it strong enough and sharp enough to do something like open a letter or document, cut a seal on a wine bottle, etc.? The crown on the box is either decoration or signifies that it was used by or in a royal family. The rubber cushioning...is it new foam or old rubber? Has the rubber held ink? This is a small box in comparison to the quarter pictured with it so this could fit in a pocket very easily. Is something missing? Is this a hook for something? Is this a medal, award, or part of a medal or award? If this was used to seal wax on a document, is it strong enough to stand repeated pressure on that semi-V leaved part? It is completely a mystery as the owner has found over 50 years of possession.
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OK I will email him.
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Is it a star or a cross on top of the crown?
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The shape of the laurel branches is in that of a v for victory.
The laurel wreath has been seen as a bold symbol of victory since the Roman times!
Military, royalty, Olympics??????
This will be one we have to come up with an answer!!!
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Hello People
I am the Owner of this item
Thank you all for commenting
I wish I would have left this thing alone 50 years ago, hahahaa
My e-mail is RLM456@aol.com
Here are what I have been told as Guesses
- A secret key bob to get into a gentelmans club
- A Victorian Mourning locket , to keep a lock of hair from a loved one after death
-a gentelmans locket for hair from his girlfriend or wife while away
- -a snuff box
-a purse hanger with the rubber pad to hang a purse while m'lady is dining
Here are a few more pics
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I see no indication it was every used as a wax impression
That was my first thought
the front and back of the V are identical
remember this entire item is only about 1" cube
The rubber does come out
NO MARKS ANYWHERE on the box, chain or wreath
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Welcome to the forum Rich! ;D
Hmmm... I think I can at least eliminate three of the suggestions that you had before.
1. A snuff box or bottle would have to have a compartment to hold the snuff. With the pad in there, this would be impossible.
2. & 3. Mourning lockets and sentimental hair jewelry would have a glass window behind which to view the lock of hair. If you had a lock of hair in this and opened it on a windy day... POOF!!
I've been pondering the possibility of it being a purse hanger handbag hook all day and have tried in vain to find anything with a similar design. No luck. However, looking at other designs, it looks like it MIGHT be possible. If you open the box, put the rubber pad face down on the table top with the lid hanging off the edge of the table and the chain and V-hook dangling, can it actually support a small amount of weight? I would not attempt to hang anything more than a few ounces on this. Maybe a few washers on a rubber band to see if it holds, or slides off the table. But I think this is one you could test, very carefully, to see if it is possible.
Any kind of secret society or men's club may be really tough to research. But I think if you contacted a Masonic order that they could at least tell you if it is or is not Masonic in origin. That would be another big step in the right direction.
Also if you found this in an abandoned house, I think you did it a favor by rescuing it, if it had been lost and left behind. So don't feel bad!
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Not a snuff box!
Not for mourning to hold hair or non-mourning to hold hair.
The crown has a cross on it that is used most commonly on eastern celtic/gaelic, traditional eastern orthodox, ancient Greek and German.
It logically could be a purse hanger and could work fine as one....however is rather small and weak for one. They typically wouldn't have been around in the 1940's to early 50's. Some did come around in the 70's.
I have a few ideas to feel out on this one!!!!!
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A purse hanger sounds reasonable but with the chain , this does not get the purse's weight under the pad where it is needed to work properly if used on a flat surface. Maybe it was made to work with the box partially opened on a chair back (one that had wood slats)? It might then hold a purse or a hat. I think the hanger aspect is one to pursue. Maybe along the lines KC suggested the cross on the crown reflects. Still an object of great wonderment and pondering.
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The crown and laurel wreath symbols are so apparent in antique/vintage items in my favorite style of all styles. Here is just one example in sterling.....Just throwing this out there to get the creative juices flowing more!
http://www.malleries.com/antique-950-french-sterling-silver-box-w-3-miniature-portraits-on-ivory-and-gems-i-26693-s-114.html?images=true&mall1SID=3a0ecd56b9f678a32ea359b2a7075317#img3 (http://www.malleries.com/antique-950-french-sterling-silver-box-w-3-miniature-portraits-on-ivory-and-gems-i-26693-s-114.html?images=true&mall1SID=3a0ecd56b9f678a32ea359b2a7075317#img3)
Rich - what year would you have found this? Possibly the gentleman had been in WW2 in France and brought it back.
Are there any small scratches from wear on the inside of the V (wreath) at the top inside?
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This appears to me to be St. Edward's Crown.
http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/St._Edward's_Crown
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/kingcrown.gif)
Notice the inclusion with several of the British crowns of the wreath/laurel throughout this site.
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-badges/crowns.htm
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/1838sovereignrev240.jpg) St. Edward's Crown
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/5thgurkhaspouchbadge.jpg) Guelphic Crown
Lost track of the site I was reading that made mention of the fact that items which included these symbols were awarded, not
mass produced and sold.
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This 'thing' has really been bugging me. Seemed like it should be something 'personal', so went through and tossed out the ideas of........
Boothook
Buttonhook
'Clasp' for holding a cape closed (through button holes, think old style sweater clip)
Hook for lacing boots
and then this thought came to me......could it be a 'toothpick' ??
Obviously small enough to be discreet, has a hooked shape similar to
a couple of the examples below and it really isn't large/strong enough to be useful in many other ways.
http://elitechoice.org/tag/antique/page/6/
"A small solid gold implement reckoned as the combination of toothpick and earwax spoon was identified while looking for a marooned Spanish galleon Santa Margarita that sank in a 1622 hurricane. Blue Water Ventures officials disclosed that divers discovered this 385-year-old toothpick after diving in 22 feet below the surface and 40 miles west of Key West. It is expected to be valued at more than $100,000.
Archaeologists believe this 3-inch-wide; 17th-century grooming tool was almost certainly worn on a gold chain."
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/gold.jpg)
http://www.orkney-antiques.co.uk/items/751044/item751044store.html
"This is a stunning Victorian combination Vesta or matchsafe, dating to around 1876, & containing a Sovereign holder, a stamp holder, a propelling pencil, & a toothpick or cigar piercer."
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/catphoto.jpg)
http://www.derby.gov.uk/LeisureCulture/MuseumsGalleries/TudorToothpickEarscoop.htm
"A 16 - 17 Century silver toothpick / earscoop. The sickle shaped pick - bent out of shape - emerges from the body of a stylised dragon and the earscoop from the mouth as if it were the dragons tongue. The body of the dragon is marked with scales. At the top of the body is a suspension loop."
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/EarscoopL.jpg)
http://www.silvercollection.it/pagina198.html
"this is an Edwardian retracting silver toothpick made in Birmingham in 1909 by silversmith W.V.&S.
The small case containing the retracting device is fully engraved with floral motifs. It is 1 1/2 in. long (cm. 4) when closed and 2 in. when opened (cm. 5)."
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/198toothpick1.jpg)
http://www.georgianindex.net/gent/quizzing_glass.html
"Silver toothpicks were commonly carried in the seventeenth through nineteenth centuries. They could be quite elaborate with a jewel on the end like the example shone here."
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/tpicko.jpg)
http://www.rubylane.com/shops/cachetantiques/item/CA854
Toothpick brooch.
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/CA8541L.jpg)
http://www.rubylane.com/shops/chainsawchuck/item/01508
"Of elephant ivory, 1 5/16" closed, 2 13/16" fully opened. Three long triangular picks swing out at one end for light-duty after-dinner mop-up, the other end is mounted with a heavier stationary carved claw for dealing with serious clean-up.
180 years ago, unless you were a peasant working the fields, using a straw or a whittled twig wasn't considered proper hygienic etiquette when prying old sweetmeats from your dentures. A person with any class at all would always have one of these nifty little gizmos in a waistcoat pocket!
Instead of being hand-sawn, a shaped steel punch was used to cut the handles and the three picks from a thin sheet of ivory (as can be deduced when using magnification to view the slightly crushed edges of these parts). Since the hooked and pinned spacer at one end was too thick to punch, it was shaped with a traditional jeweler's saw."
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/015081L.jpg)
http://www.bexfield.co.uk/98/1pistol1.htm
"Victorian silver "pistol" toothpick..
Made by Sampson Mordan, circa 1850. Length 1.25" (4cm)."
Price £345.00
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/1pistol2.jpg)
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I'll add my lame-ish guess that it may have originated as a war-time honoraria item .
The laurel breloque & crown diadem suggest to me something like a fealty chain w/locket-box .
Perhaps from Leopold militaria ?
Can't really see wearmarks from the images but ....
Maybe it's a "church-key" ? ;D ;D
The chain seems more modern-ish to me ...
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The Laurel Wreath
Exerted from: http://www.sandiego.edu/about/history/seal.php (http://www.sandiego.edu/about/history/seal.php)
"In the upper left quadrant, there is a laurel wreath, which was part of the seal of the San Diego College for Women. The laurel wreath challenges us to excellence. It was conferred as a mark of honor and glory in ancient times on poets, heroes and victors in athletic contests. The person who received the laurel was not only recognized for excellence, but also for honor, justice and truth. The laurel crowns the person who is the very best. It is not a symbol of good intention, noble goals or fine thoughts, rather it is the mark of achievement."
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Possibly cogar is on the right track...
At Connecticut College members of the junior class carry a laurel chain, which the seniors pass through during Commencement. It represents nature and the continuation of life from year to year. Immediately following commencement, the junior girls write out with the laurels their class year, symbolizing they have officially become seniors and the cycle will repeat itself the following spring.
From http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:piRyU8RVHroJ:www.absoluteastrono my.com/topics/Laurel_wreath+half-laurel+wreath+on+a+chain&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
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Wayward, I couldn't get your link to work.
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I agree that it is something personal....
Hope the RichM fella answers where ther are any scratch marks (wear marks) on the inside of the laurel at the top! That will put out a few things i the running.
If that was a toothpick (he said there were no broken parts) that would be mighty awkward and painful! BUT again....on a good track to try and resolve this!
The hunt is on................. ............
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As of now, I would have to agree with regularjoe on this one. An honorary pendent of sorts seems most likely to me.
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7seas try this one...http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Laurel_wreath and go down to Academic use. I do not know what is missing from the previous link but something did not copy.
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Got it, thanks! I wonder if it could be an academic achievement award and that the chain's only function is just to keep the award from being separated from the box. I sure wish we could find even a remotely similar example though to give Rich some kind of confirmation of what it is.
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Well, without the chained laurel wreath, my guess on the box would be a stamp box due to its' small size. I have just looked at a gazillion antique and collectible stamp boxes and none had a chained laurel wreath thing or even anything close so scratch that idea.
The 'V' shape of the laurel wreath is an older and usually foreign origin laurel wreath use and also is used to signify a Master's degree. Maybe this is a British (due to the embossed crown)academic award of some sort. Any users from the UK want to weigh in on this object that is a complete mystery so far?
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OLD GRAB BAG OF GOODIES: Small 1-1/2" X 2"black metal box with crown-opens to be perosnal asktray- Metal badge with NSF in red initials, small 1" X 1" metal box with crown, small 1/2" sterling silver crown drop for necklace, four gold tone buttons with crown, two wiht coat of arms and larger one with DOCENDO DISCIMUS ( we learn by teaching) EX-NE-HI-LONI-HIL-FIT (couldn't find a trasnlation). Have no idea the face on the button. Pretty sure it's Greek. $10.00 plus postageSOLD
http://everythingroyal.com/commemoratives2.html
Look at this metal box on this page of royalty stuff, it sure looks the same but does not describe anything inside.
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Side by side for comparison. Unfortunately, the image from the everythingroyal page does not magnify without becoming pixelated so it is left as is.
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Good job Wayward!! It sure looks like the same one to me. I'm betting the one on that site is missing the chain and stuff and is just the box since they just called it a box.
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Super Job WayWard. 8)
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Thanks. Now I have another thought. Maybe the laurel wreath object is to be removed and used as a charm, pendant, or fob and that is why the contents of the one on the Everything Royal page is missing and not mentioned. And maybe that is why laurel wreath object is the same on all sides without one side flat for engraving?
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Maybe but it looks like the wreath is attached permanently and the only way to remove it would be to cut it out. That doesn't make sense.
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WOW.....again I say WOW wayward!!!!!!! Phenomenal you found what appears to be the same.
Another thought. The interior items might still be there.....the just might not know what it is as well and chose to not mention it!!!
I was also thinking it was an academic token of achievement. But...until proven.....
The hunt continues.......... ...........
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Would love to be able to ask the owner a couple of questions....cause this thing has brought up so many.
1) Can the case/box open flat? (or do the hinges prevent that)
2) Can it be closed with the chain hanging out?
I've tried to picture this as possibly an emblem that could be threaded through a button hole.....as in identification/affiliation, but
if the case must remain partially open that wouldn't be feasible. The odd curve at the tip and the fact that he says it's only 1" x 1"
is what lead me to think possibly a toothpick. It does appear that the curve is meant to be there and if it can't be used with the
case out of the way/out of sight what is it's use? Why are both ends not curved? If the curve doesn't serve a visual purpose, what
physical purpose could it have?
If it was meant to be taken out and attached to something (i.e. fob) why is it so firmly fixed?
A 'pass key' to a club or society? Something that was small enough to be secreted away yet significant when opened.
So small an item to be such a big '???' ::)
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Sapphire, After viewing the pics I don't see how the box can be closed with the chain hanging out!
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Way to dig that up Waywardangler.
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I emailed Everything Royal with pictures and this is her response...
"I had one. I put it in with some other small things and gave it to a client. It had no value. It was silverplate, not sterling.
I have no idea what it was used for."
So if someone that deals in royal commemoratives doesn't know, we may be in for a long haul to determine what 'it' was used for.
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Showed it to my parents today....their responses were....
A spark plug gapper given with expensive cars (LOL)
Awards for:
Bottle opener given to VIP's of Royal Crown Cola (my father has some items with crowns for Crown, Cork & Seal Can and worked with
Crown and saw items given out similar - but thought this was smaller than what he recalled.
Something Masonic
Here are some that were given out in the past as awards
http://cgi.ebay.com/Two-pieces-of-Silver-Antique-Masonic-regalia-NO-RESERV_W0QQitemZ280476990942QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Collectables_Masonic_CV?hash=item414dbb3dde#ht_520wt_915 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Two-pieces-of-Silver-Antique-Masonic-regalia-NO-RESERV_W0QQitemZ280476990942QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Collectables_Masonic_CV?hash=item414dbb3dde#ht_520wt_915)
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I'm thinking maybe this is where they keep keys of their vault or something..
Maybe we should ask someone who might be in the same era when those things are used, or made. I just don't think they are internet-savvy to be able to see this. ;D
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;D ;D ;D ;D MYSTERY SOLVED!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
This just in from Rich Mossman:
I have finally received the answer to my Quest, to find out What
The “Thing” I found over 50 years ago is.
It is a PURSE HANGER .
Made by Abon Manufacturing in New York
You opened the Box and put the rubber pad face down on
The edge of your table.
The purse then hung at your table, instead of hanging it
on the back of the chair or sitting your purse on the floor
I want to Thank all the people that e-mailed me,
with Ideas as to What this thing could possibly be used for.
This Item had baffled me for over 50 Years
I can now place this quest behind me
Rich Mosman
Federal Way , WA
RLM456@aol.com
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I'm glad to know !
Thanks for the update , talesof .
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You're welcome! Just for kicks I ran a search on Abon purse hanger and it's up for sale on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Abon-Mfg-Purse-Hanger-Handbag-Holder-Hook-_W0QQitemZ170464767711QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20100330?IMSfp=TL100330012005r30937 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Abon-Mfg-Purse-Hanger-Handbag-Holder-Hook-_W0QQitemZ170464767711QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20100330?IMSfp=TL100330012005r30937)
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Myself!
Interestingly enough, Abon has several items for women made in late 1940's. There are no patents on file for them under this name. Even one of their items (a glove ring) had a patent listed on the box and there wasn't one in the patents listed!!! Very Interesting!!!!!!
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Thanks to Rich Mossman and Talesof, we can put one unknown to rest. Now if the rest of the unknowns would be discovered, we could quit scratching our heads. I would really like to know about that hatchet head of cogar's.