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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: JacksonT on March 28, 2010, 09:59:40 AM
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This is a real painting not a copy and we beleive the frame is paper mache. Can anyone shed any light on its value please?
Size is approx 7" by 5".
I cant find any signatures on it although i havent opened it as it will decrease the value if any.
(http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz270/DonExecution/SDC10169.jpg)
Thank You :).
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Wow, looks beautiful. Can you tell what the painting is painted on? If it is 18th century, as the woman's fashion would suggest, sometimes portraits were painted on ivory. Have you got a canvas or something else? Also photos of the reverse side would be helpful, to see if what the construction of the frame is.
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Thank you for your reply talesofthesevenseas, we've looked at the frame abit closer and it looks more wood then paper mache. We arn't sure what its painted on, it's very shiny and you can see the paint so its definetly not a print. What do you mean by have we got a canvas?
Here's a picture of the back and a more clearer photo of the painting.
(http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz270/DonExecution/SDC10254.jpg)
(http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz270/DonExecution/SDC10252.jpg)
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If you tap it gently with you finger, does it feel like it is painted on something hard, like ivory,porcelain, wood,or, canvas?
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It has glass so we can't really tell. With it having glass does that tell you its not antique or worth anything?
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BY looking at it again i'd have to say either porcelain or ivory but can't be sure without pealing off the felt stuff on the back and i dont want to do that.
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The backing is just to seal out dirt, dust, etc. It does not add to the value of the painting/picture if it is there and it does not subtract from the value if it is removed. The painting/picture would have to be looked at out of the frame to determine its' condition and what it is painted on. With glass on the front how did you determine it is not a print? I would not think glass up against any painting is good. I would hope there is an air space between the image and the glass. Ironlord should weigh in on this because I think he does framing.
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I am betting it is probably painted on porcelain.....howev er, they even painted on firm pieces of bakelite when ivory was hard to come by.
It is a rather large painting...most miniatures were were much smaller that used ivory. UNLESS you were saying that the frame itself was that big...then I am leaning towards porcelain or ivory.
These were very popular among the elite. Was much more common in France. Is there a signature?
Nice one. Like the frame as well.
They did go through a time that item were made out of pressed papers during the 30's and on.....but I can't say as I have seen a pressed paper frame (but I bet they made them). Have seen pressed paper furniture. These are similar to trays I have that are pressed paper from the late 1940's.
(http://ny-image1.etsy.com/il_fullxfull.69552461.jpg)
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Thank you all for your replies and information, Taking waywardangler's advice we have removed the felt and took out the painting. It appears to be painted on plastic, as KC mentioned it must be bakelite? There is no signature. Is there still any value in this?
KC.....The size i mentioned was the frame, the painting itself is tiny maybe 3" by 2".
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Jackson test to see if it is indeed bakelite on the back on a spot clean of paint use a small dab of simichrome polish on a white cloth and rub it onto surface if polish remains pink it is not bakelite if polish turns a yellow tobacco type stain you have bakelite.
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Be very sure that is plastic and not ivory. Plastic would be a highly unusual choice for an artist.
One additional comment on Wayward's comment on glass framed paintings. Watercolors are the exception. Those need glass to protect them.
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Although the jury is still out on this one , I'd say it resembles (strongly) some I've seen over in the European corner of the world , with manufacture dates in the 1960's-1970's .... at 'boot sales' & swapmeets .
As others mentioned about glass/frames & paintings .......
It's never a good idea to have actual physical contact between the surfaces .
The only exception to this (that I know of) is when the artist/manufacturer intended the glass as an element of the piece itself .
In the not-too-distant past , many items were framed without mattings and came in contact with condensation , molds & other icky stuff from the glass that was supposed to 'protect' them . The glass would often have some transfer of material to it's surface , especially if the framed unit was moved around a bit (road vibrations & so on) .
Many pieces of art today are fully framed and matted , including glass and poly-plastics on their fronts .
The old 'standards' of 'what you do with what' have changed a bit in the U.S. , with designers & environmental/preservation-minded folk .
It was cheap and quick to just stick a painting in a frame , seal the back & out the door .... this was very common for folks who 'did' their own framing too .
One cool part of this old method was that , with evidence of paint transfer to face-glass , sometimes one could authenticate the frame elements as being the original ones (in certain situations) .
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A fairly good article....
http://www.oldandsold.com/articles01/article803.shtml (http://www.oldandsold.com/articles01/article803.shtml)
What is funny is that they just had a show on the Flea Market Finds tv program about miniatures!!!!
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Ya know, if this were mine, I think I would have it looked at by by a professional who can see it and hold it in person. Trying to work from photos, without being able to confirm the material on this one is tough. If it's a modern repro painted on plastic from the seventies, it wouldn't be worth much. But if you've got a early miniature it could be worth some serious bucks. That's my two ha'pennies worth!
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Be very sure that is plastic and not ivory. Plastic would be a highly unusual choice for an artist.
One additional comment on Wayward's comment on glass framed paintings. Watercolors are the exception. Those need glass to protect them.
If it is indeed ivory wouldn't it be thick? Whatever it is painted on its thin and flexible. Being flexible should suggest its plastic or bakelite even? Wendy we'll try the polish later today, will any old dusting polish work?
Thanks for the info again people much appreciated :).
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Hi Jackson No dusting polish will not work it must be simichrome polish something in that specific compound that reacts with genuine Bakelite and not all plastics. And I agree with Tales this one needs a hands on inspection by a professional. good luck
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Jackson, Ivory is EXTREMELY brittle and without proper care/temperature/lighting will break.
They also used different kinds of bones, vellum, etc.
If you know of a museum that is close by that has someone willing to talk with you.....they may lend their expertise. A reputable framing shop might even without having to pay for an appraisal.
The expensive and older paintings were of paint mixtures and/or oils. Some did appear to be water colors so it scares me when you say that you are going to try a polish. If the material that it is painted on is porous....you possibly will have ruined your painting.
Sometimes patience and time in getting answers is the answer.
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We have decided to put this on ebay for £30, not sure if we are robbing ourselves or the buyer? lol. Since we couldn't find any hard evidence wether or not this is authentic as we couldnt find any signatures and we arent sure if its bakelite or simply just a reproduction on plastic. We'd really like your opinions on this price we have set as a starting bid, wether or not we should take it off or sell it for more?
I'd really like to find more information on this but dont think we will so its on ebay for sale http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140395881501&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
Again thank you all so much for your input. :)
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Again, I would have this looked at by someone in person.
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I agree with talesof! Many people have sold valuable items for very little for merely the inconvenience of finding out about it.
If in fact it is from late 1800's....could sale in the $70 to $200s!!!!!!
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The listing absolutely needs to be edited. It was listed as an 18th century piece. If you have no idea of age, it's very unfair to list it as a piece from the 1700's. The 18th century would be the 1700's. Someone like me who doesn't have enough experience would bid on this piece and be devastated to find out it's from the 1970's. In the ad, state that you are UNSURE of the exact age and that it is possibly a reproduction. That's just my two cents.
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Way to go hosman....hadn't looked at the offer yet!
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Hosman321 is absolutely correct. The listing says it is an 18th century painting on Bakelite. Bakelite was invented in 1907, so that right there is going to send up all kinds of red flags and alarm bells for any antiques buyer worth their salt. Pull that puppy down JacksonT!
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I'm with Tales. Get it checked by a pro.
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I'm curious to know what the adhesive was like , when you removed the felt .
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Thanks for the input i will change the description now. When we took the felt off it appeared to be stuck on by paste as it came off pretty easy. There were 2 nails keeping a peice of cardboard infront of the painting and the glass, this to me points towards a reproduction? or maybe someone has had this open in the past and just put the glass and cardboard in for protection so the painting itself may still be 18th century.
Where could we take it to get it looked at as we've took it to antique shops before and they didnt want to know, or didnt know anything about it. Location: England, Newcastle upon Tyne.
Even if it is a repro its still old so we'd like to know what we should sell it for'?
Thanks, Lee
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Jackson thank you for changing your sellers add on eBay as a buyer of antiques I always appreciate honesty from my sellers and those are the ones I continue to keep in contact with and buy from on repeat occasions. I would also remove from your add that it is painted on bakelite ,I would place it may be painted on ivory but you are not sure. If you are just honest in your add someone will purchase it with the possibility it is not a repo and it may not be but have no recourse if it is. I would try to contact a local art museum and see if they will take a look. good luck
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I'm pretty sure its not ivory Wendy as its flexible, if you were to bend ivory wouldnt it break? It's either modern plastic or bakelite. Probably best off leaving it as bakelite although i will add in the description on ebay that its possibly ivory. Thanks again Wendy....we'll try to get this looked at by a pro.
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I would not flex this at all. Flexing can cause cracking of the painted surface or even popping off of paint from the surface. The non-painted back should be looked at to determine if it is ivory, celluloid, or bakelite but do not flex it. Just about any thin material will flex to an extent, even glass, up to its' breaking point and then it is too late.
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Having a museum take a look at it would be ideal, but if you're not able to get help from them, even an antique store may be able to help you just make the material identification. I recently got a great deal of help on an ivory handled parasol from a local antique dealer who specialized in ivory pieces. Another option might even be a pawn shop. These guys have to be able to identify pieces in order to price them. My suggestion would be to offer them a few bucks for an identification only. That's what I did with the antique store guy. He was very nice and ended up just helping me for free.
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Great suggestions from others , concerning getting a hands-on opinion .
Here's what I'm 'seeing' (without REALLY seeing in person) , I think -
Looks like pressed-paper frame , hand painted .
Felt backing (if indeed it's really felt) is a very odd choice for an antique oil paint item ; cardboard backing inside of frame is perhaps a 'tell' too .
Ease of removal of said felt is another red-herring .
It actually looks like a recently-produced (maybe asian) home-decor item to me .
Too many questions about it to give an informed answer from this guy .
I'm not trying to devalue your item ; (my gut is twitching on this one , which I always 'listen to')... just pointing out the opinion that we/I can't tell enough about your item , sight unseen .