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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: sapphire on March 30, 2010, 07:12:16 PM
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OK, I'm waiting for a reply to a query I sent about this sideboard/buffet ( ? ). If they'll hold it for me I'm grabbing it cause I just love
the look. I have a blank wall in my bedroom now and an entire collection of ceramic eggs that I want to display (plus I need more
storage space). I've been scanning the ads hoping to find something that catches my eye and was within my price range.
Can anyone give me any info or suggestions as to exactly what this is and approximately how old it may be? Does it appear to be oak?
Arggggh, if they won't hold it for me till I get off work I know I'm just going to cry!! :P
Edited to add.....it's 53" x 75" x 18.5"
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/Sideboard/4351l9l_20.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/Sideboard/53063fk_20.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/Sideboard/49113g8_20.jpg)
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That looks nice. Is that hand carving on the panels, applied or pressed? The center seems to have a dip. I am not a furniture guy so I do not know the correct terms but I would look to see why the center looks off. Maybe a structure problem that could be an easy fix? Those lion head pulls are neat. It does appear to be oak but that center leg bothers me. Looks more like a replaced leg of fir than oak (and maybe too short and that is why it dips). There is a lot of style to the whole piece except for the legs. They are high and about as beautiful as a straight board. Maybe all the legs are replacements?
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It's all hand carved wayward. They do mention that work had been started but more (obviously) had to be done. There was just something
about this that struck me. Seeing it so soon after it was posted (so minutes) I just jumped on it.......but apparently it didn't do me any good.
Two hours and more than 100 views, still no response....so they likely realized they were asking too low a price. Wouldn't be a bit
surprised to see it relisted at a much higher price.
And yes, there's definitely a 'dip' happening.....that middle leg in particular seems 'off'. Knowing it would be a make work project I
wasn't really too concerned.
Really wish people would have the decency to at least reply...........ah well, the search continues.
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This "dip" or sagging occurs because of improper structure support on a piece and/or wood that isn't as study in the cross structure.
I even had this happen in a piece that was property supported just he weight above was to great and compacted the wood beneath.
I agree that the middle legs look as if they are added. Need to make a closer inspection. I am not sure how much it can be corrected.
To say the least in this condition there aren't many who will be interested in it. Definitely appears hand carved and most likely early 1900's. Any way to get side views of pulled out drawers? and back? and pushing it....the inside of the cabinet door that isn't closing well?
Will be glad when D&b feels better and his computer feels better as well....he will do great in helping with this as well as regjoe, cogar, fancypants, texasbadger, etc.....
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The center seems to have a dip.
It looks to me like that "dip" is an optical illusion as a result of both the top & bottom boards extending out from the front of the cabinet and having a beveled or rounded edge on them.
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Agree cogar would love to see pics from the side, beautiful piece sapphire!!! I think the door can be adjusted to close correctly.
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Not a bad one to pass on , sapphire .
Looks like this unit had some issues that were not 'corrected' properly , when it was refinished .
It looks distinctive 'from a distance' & more so up close , if you get my drift .
Laying a straight-edge across my monitor , it's clear that the warp (that others have mentioned) extends all the way up the cabinet , to it's main top surface .... not a fish-eye lens on the cam , etc.
It is a bit frustrating when sellers won't/don't communicate .... my guess is that "the powers that be" prevented one of our premier researchers on the forum from getting stung on this one !
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Sapphire and cogar....that is what I did...laid a straight edge across key points in the photo....and the sagging is real according to the picture.
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Well I finally heard back, she was waiting for another 'buyer' to come see it. They offered her $50. :P
So guess what's stowed in the back of the Jeep right now?
Made it to her house in an hour and fell in love at first sight. It is so quirky and has so much character I just
had to give it a home. If I were six years old and just told I could go live in Disneyland forever I couldn't be
any more giggly and excited!! ;D
As to the 'dip', yup is is sagging in the middle. The center 'leg' is not a leg at all, it a piece of board the previous
owner cut and stained (along with one for the rear) to prop under it ....... in the pictures it's only leaning against
it, not under it. That's going to be one issue to address....but it certainly squares it up with the support. I was
so thrilled with it's general look that I didn't go over it like I plan to when I drag it in. She was very good to point
out 'issues' she was aware of, like a split in the panel on the end, a drawer base that tends to separate ......just
odds and ends.
I can honestly say I'm totally thrilled with it, even though it's going to take some work to bring out it's best. Some
things will likely never be fully corrected, but I don't mind. It just has so much character and as it's for myself I
don't have to worry about making it 'perfect'.
So be prepared for LOTS of questions and requests for advice and I'll happily put up with the groans and chuckles
that will surely be plentiful.
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Congrats sapphire, Looks like it has a good home.
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Cool! It's neat, even with the issues. With a nice antique soup tureen and some other fancy china sitting on it, the bend would probably be less noticeable! (Ooh look! You just got an excuse to get s'more antiques!!!) ;)
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Good score , sapphire !
Some glue , clamps & patience will go a long way , on this very nice little item .
Looks like it's an oak item , mostly , yes ?
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Haha tales......won't have much room left when I dig out my eggs ! :D I'm hoping that with proper support,
whatever that may turn out to be, that sagging will be eliminated. The blocks they used to brace it against the
floor made a definite difference, so if I can make (or have made) more appropriate legs that'll be one item off
my list.
fancypants.....yup, pretty sure it's oak through and through (except for the back.....kind of slab board covering)
Can't wait till tomorrow to get it inside (rather not break my neck in the dark)
I'm going to go all over it to see if I can find any marking, didn't notice anything on the back so hoping something
may show up on the bottom or drawers. I wish whoever had it before hadn't refinished it. Another issue may
have occurred due to that. You'll notice black marks all over it.......seems to be related to nails, but not totally
sure on that though. So more suitable support and a stripdown are major firsts. Get ready to throw suggestions/
advice this way everyone.
Now to hunt up some new batteries for the camera so I can start detailing my 'treasure' and documenting my
(hopeful) progress.
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Look forward to hearing of your new adventure! It will be fun!
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Sapphire so happy for you!!! it is a real looker!!! Wish I lived closer to you as I would send the hubby right over (making furniture is his passion) to make repairs but you will do great!! Will have him follow this thread for any help he can give on your wonderful adventure. It does have a unique charm that just sucks you in. ;D
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Here's the first in what's likely to be volumes of pics.
Only just got it hauled in out of the jeep tonight. Poor thing has been riding around with me for nearly two days. The lighting
isn't the greatest downstairs but took some shots of the drawers and the interior on the drawer side. Also found a signature on
the underneath of one drawer. May just have been from a previous owner and I haven't even taken the time to try to figure out
what the name is. Just wanted to get them up and see what kind of input I get about age (KC mentioned possible early
1900's).
Most of you would cringe (or cry) at some of what I have found......but that is another volume. ;)
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Looking into drawer side ,from above and looking up at the divisions between drawers.
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Evidence of peg construction.
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Drawer front detail. Lion head is a separate piece of wood, no screws or nails attaching it.
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Signature on underside of drawer.
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Neat that you have that signature, it could be fun to try to figure out if it was an owner or a manufacturer. Love the lion drawers! Looking forward to seeing your project pix!
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Thanks for all the images , sapphire !
In image # 2090 , (on what appears to be a dust panel under the top drawers) there appears to be another sig/word/name , written in pencil - it's in the lower right-ish area of the image .
Is this a 'trick of the grain' etc , or can you see it in person ?
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Geesh, now you got me runnin' back down to take another look !! ::)
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Thinks it's just a grain thing going on there. In certain light it does appear to be a faint sign of what looks to be writing, but lighting from other angles just shows the grain/texture. So while I'm down there with one of those crazy six light gooseneck floor lamps I figured I might as well crawl back under again........thank god no one was around with a camera!! ;)
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Wow you've got good eyes RJ2!! Sapphire, try taking another photo with the flash on, right on that spot. Sometimes it will make things show up that are hard to see.
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OK, here's what I got (besides the smart comment from hubby as he passed the doorway). :-\
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/Sideboard/IMG_2095.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/Sideboard/IMG_2102.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/Sideboard/IMG_2105.jpg)
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I think this is a local craftsman made cabinet rather than a mass manufacturer. I am basing this on the construction techniques and different woods used. The wide handcut dovetails tell me one age but the doweled parts tell me another. I am thinking this is around 1900 or earlier with later repairs. The original pics are gone so I could not look at the whole front again. The pic with brass hinge showing and the light colored wood have me thinking that might be one replacement but I could not see where this was on the sideboard to be sure. The sagginess may be from a poor earlier re-glue. Those drawer fronts are just plain neat. The penciled name I would guess is the name of who it was made for. This will really look nice when it is straightened out like it was originally made. I do not know how loose the joints are now but I would seriously consider taking apart what you can to clamp and reglue it correctly. Vinegar on old glue softens it up (not epoxy or some modern glues).
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Thanks for pointing out those pics had disappeared wayward. Forgot when I moved them to another album that it would make them go poof ;) Replaced them now.
There have been numerous repairs and 'additions'.....glue and varying ages of nails. It's going to be a major job......great idea for a 'first project' ........guess this will be a trial by fire for sure. :D
The door hinges are definitely replacements, between shrinkage, warping and dried out glue seems everyone has had a crack at this.
Will get more pictures when daylight arrives and also get a better idea of what's ahead of me. (Do I really want to know??)
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Darn. Looks like we subjected you to hubby's commentary for nothing!
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Here's a few shots of my surface challenges. I mentioned to tales that I am thinking about eventually staining it a mahogany or burgundy shade as I love dark wood and it would match my other furniture. Opinions?
How about some suggestions/advice on the best way to proceed with the stripping, is pre stain conditioner useful, varathane vs oil ??
Still can't believe someone covered this with a finish.
OK, I'm all ears ;)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/Sideboard/IMG_2203.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/Sideboard/IMG_2204.jpg)
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/Sideboard/IMG_2206.jpg)
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After removing what type of finish is on there, I would try and lighten the stained spots with bleach as much as possible. Then I would see what shade of stain would 'hide' all the imperfections as much as possible and that is the stain I would go with. I would hope you would not have to go so dark it hides the beauty of the grain or the depth and richness of the carvings. I really like the carvings and lion heads.
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Sapphire, your piece is made of oak and I would use a “liquid” stripper rather than a “paste” stripper to remove the finish. If the finish is lacquer then use a lacquer thinner to remove it. And being that it is oak you can use a wire or copper brush but only brush in the direction of the grain. Some of those black “spots” looks like they were caused by a reaction to the nails in the wood and they will be almost impossible to remove but as Wayward suggested, bleach should lighten them up some.
And a “stain conditioner” is not necessary, that wood is already “conditioned” as much as it will ever be. And ps:, a “stain conditioner” is only necessary on new or unfinished wood and the cheapest is a 50-50 mix of shellac and wood alcohol. Buy a small can of each, mix them together and if you keep it sealed tightly it will keep for years.
And a dark stain you might want to check out is a Martin-Senour “American Cherry”. Here, I took a picture so you could see what it looks like. This is made of cedar with a Luan plywood back and has 2 coats of “American Cherry” stain and a Min-Wax “satin” PolyCrylic finish on it.
Hey, and I love that Varathane, it is better than the PolyCrylic.
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Ah! I didn't realize it was the "Lion Sideboard" that you were referring to. Wow, it would look neat and very Gothic in dark stain, wouldn't it?!
Well, in my very humble, rookie, non-expert opinion, since this one is going to be going through some repair/restoration anyway, I wouldn't think that redoing the finish would harm the value or really be a loss of it's history. Anyone have a comment on that?
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If she is redoing for historical reasons....stick with the current. However, since it isn't a Smithsonian piece in the view of "die hard collectors" she needs to do what makes her happy.
I personally would darken it up to go along with my other furniture and tastes. I wouldn't go burgundy tho' - Sometimes the woods can take on a eerie red - like a life of it's own and just jump out at you. You want it to be a darkened color that will reflect age/time and integrity.
Still like this piece!
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The bottom line is having a cabinet finish that you will enjoy/like for years to come .
In the U.S. , during the late 1960's through the present , many pieces of antique furniture became available to buy (presumably due to previous owners passing away) .
Along with this small 'flood' of furniture , came businesses that specialized in stripping off old finishes (as well as individuals who'd strip their own stuff) .
A majority of original oak furniture of the era as yours is , sapphire , (that I have seen) was stained quite dark .
This gave pieces a 'dark & heavy' appearance esp to buyers in the late 20th century .
With the advent of so many items being made from/with synthetic components , I think folks became a bit nostalgic for solid wood furniture .
The fashion became to be , in a fair portion of the 'refinished' market , light-to-medium stains on oak , making the wood grain quite visable and the cabinet less 'dark & heavy' .
In original finishes on some old oak furniture , dark colors were applied so as to mimic more expensive woods (esp. walnut & other hardwoods) , which would/could be placed alongside of existing furniture & would 'match' .
The purpose of any wood stain is to alter the appearance of the actual bare wood (some would say 'enhance' , rather than 'alter') .
Dark stains can be used to 'hide' many imperfections in a piece , and often work for the purpose .... sometimes not so much .
Whatever color you choose , you should use a 'filler' (since oak is an 'open-grain' wood) prior to staining your piece , for a really nice finish that looks like a grown-up did it (IMO) . :)
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Thanks everyone for the input. I had rethought the 'burgundy' and realized (based on hair experience ;)) that what's natural and what's added don't always compliment each other. I'm going to borrow the local hardware store's larger sample book, which will give me a much better idea than the 1" x 1/2" image on their pamplet. She's never going to look perfect.......and definitely NOT Smithsonian material, but I know I'll be satisfied with the results. Can't really be any worse than where we started. ;)
Now regularjoe, explain 'filler' to me! That's a term totally foreign to my vocabulary when it doesn't pertain to nail holes, etc.
Cogar, how do I determine if it's a lacquer finish? If it is lacquer, is lacquer thinner 'required' or would stripper accomplish the
same result?
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Sapphire , filler that I mentioned is a very viscous mat'l (sorta like a thick paint) , usually applied with a brush & wiped-down (across , not 'with' the grain) with cloth .
Filler is then allowed to fully dry , and then lightly sanded .
Sometimes a person will choose to apply filler twice , if 'more is revealed' after the initial sanding .
The purpose of it is to 'fill' all of the open parts of woodgrain (pores) , so as to have a flat surface to apply finish coats upon .
It will also fill other small imperfections , such as checking , cracking , glue seams & 'lifts' in wood .
You may have seen finishes on oak , for example , where you can actually feel the grain through the finish , and see little 'dips' all over the place (wood pores) - this is one indicator of an un-filled finish on open-grain woodwork .
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Ahhh, OK gotcha!! Now to check our local stores to see if we have that in Canajun ;)
Just did a search of Minwax products (the one I know for sure is available) and came across this, would it
be considered a 'filler'?
http://www.minwax.com/products/wood_preparation/lacquer_sanding_sealer.html
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The lacquer product you've mentioned is not exactly the thing , but getting close to the neighborhood .
Minwax does have a filler-product that would work , depending on what your final finish is going to be .
You should choose products that are meant to be used together , so as to have a happy experience - for instance , don't use oil-based stains when top-coating with a water-based polyurethane , etc.
Rather than go into yet another missive , here's a link that's a good-ish primer on the whats & whys of fillers for wood : www.craftsman-style.info/finishing/034-fillers.htm