Antique-shop.com
Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: hosman321 on April 02, 2010, 11:00:13 PM
-
I apologize in advance for not having pictures of this exact piece but I put it on hold at an antique shop. Totally slipped my mind to take pics with my cell phone.
It's a flax breaker, sample pictures are below. It is dated 1823 (carved in) and has simple, primitive carvings of a few flowers and lines. Nothing over the top. The flowers are a pale pink and there's a little bit of pale green. The wood is smooth and worn and the nails are thick and hand-hammered. There are no modern bolts or screws or anything. Obviously, it would be best if I thought to take pictures. The shop is quite a drive and I won't be going back for about 2 weeks. Unless, of course, I can talk the mister into taking me in the next couple days. :)
My main concern is that it's a nice chunk of money to spend on something without being sure of it's age. Can anybody give me any advice on what to look for specifically? For instance, "If it has ____, it's absolutely a reproduction." Or, "If it has ____ it's most likely authentic." I'm very worried about buying something that somebody built in their garage. The shop owner told me he's 99 percent positive of it's age. He bought it from a woman that bought all her antiques in Virginia. She brought everything here (Washington) with her. Now that she has to move back to Virginia, she doesn't want to haul it all again. He said her house was amazing, filled with amazing primitives and antiques. Anyways, any pointers? How commonly are these simple tools reproduced? I'll take pics when I go make my next payment. Thanks for any advice!
By the way, I'm going to use it as a blanket/quilt rack. I don't plan on making clothes any time soon. :)
-
I can't offer any advice or expertise hosman, but came across this and thought you'd find it interesting. Especially the video
showing it in action. If you don't get very much input here you could give this group a shout out. ;)
http://www.flaxscutching.org/
-
Yeah, I saw that site right before you wrote Sapphire. Thank you for the help though, I always appreciate you taking the time to search. :)
It looks like such a simple thing to buy, but they had a few old blankets laying over it and it just looked amazing. Pretty amazing how people used to make everything by hand.
-
I am not familiar with a flax breaker but have seen a few of the handheld flax paddles with dates carved in and original paint. After looking online at different flax breakers and from my years of auctions and antique shops, I can honestly say I have never seen a flax breaker like you describe. I would say they have not been reproduced or they would be all over the place. There has to be money in it to be reproduced. My only concern would be if the carving is original to the date and if it is European or American. I am leery of European items because of the containers of stuff that shows up at flea markets such as goat carts, square wood buckets with 'old' paint and carved names, wood firkins, etc.
Look for wear where there should be wear and years of smoothness from use instead of filed or sanded smoothness. It sounds legit from your description.
-
Came across this one dated late 17th/early 18th century.....museum piece. Nowhere near as attractive as you describe.
Flax breaker
Wood (maple?), 45" long, 16" wide, 34" high, .
Made in Connecticut (?) in the late 17th or early 18th century and brought to Detroit, Maine by the first settlers. An essential tool
for preparing flax for the weaver. After "breaking" the flax, it would be cleaned and sorted with the help of a scutching knife and
board, ripple and hatchel and then wound on a spinning jenny. For more information on this process, see the reprint on flax
dressing available at the Museum.
MH
9
Flax Dressing Tools
Historic Maritime I (1607-1676): The First Colonial Dominion
TAB1013
http://www.davistownmuseum.org/pics/tab1013.jpg
-
That's so funny Sapphire, I'm on that site right now and was looking at that picture at the same time. Mine is very similar to that but it has 4 legs rather than two. The wood on the one I have is very dried out. It almost has the texture/appearance of driftwood. But different. Very light color and smooth all over. I guess that was what concerned me, too. The fact that the whole thing looks evenly worn rather than certain spots. But now I see these ones online and they look just about the same. I just need to get pics. I'll feel strange taking pictures in the middle of a store. But hey, if they want to sell it then I'm sure they won't mind. Pics will explain a lot. I just have a strange feeling about it and it's usually smart to follow your gut. My husband said, "Well, if it's fake then you'll have a cool looking blanket rack anyways. So don't freak out about it." :-\
Oh, and I have found some repros online that people still use today. For the hobby of making flax items. But they are clearly newer. With bolts and modern nails and stuff.
-
Another 'newer' model ;)
http://www.search.windowsonwarwickshire.org.uk/engine/resource/default.asp?theme=485&originator=%2Fengine%2Ftheme%2Fdefault%2Easp&page=&records=&direction=&pointer=398&text=0&resource=9560
-
Dated 1823 …….. and the nails are thick and hand-hammered.
Items such as that were all hand made, same as spinning or flax wheels, ... and I would be dubious of anything that had nails in it as part of the original construction. But they could have been added at a later date.
Anyway, the nails should be "square" or "cut" nails and they can be dated.
Such "mochines" that are made of wood and are nailed together tend to wobble loose after long periods of use.
-
You might also look to see if it has peg construction. You might see some of the pegs protruding from the wood, because the wood shrinks over time. Looks like it would make a great quilt rack!!
-
Totally irrelevant to Flax breakers, but HAPPY EASTER to all
-
Most of the construction was wooden pegs holding it together, and they were protruding out a bit like tales said. Kinda like the main wood had shrunk and the pegs hadn't shrunk as much. I think I only saw one or two square-ish nails. Maybe they were repairs? I'll post pics as soon as I go take some. :)
Thanks for the input, I'll keep everyone's advice in mind when I go look at it again.
-
Goin' to pick this up tomorrow, I'll post pics when I get home. :)
-
My understanding is that wood shrinks sideways across the grain, and very little, along the grain. So the pegs get squeezed, and start to protrude over time. You might see odd measurements sideways across the grain, and standard measurement lengths (like even inches) due to shrinking.
Looking forward to your pics!
-
I think I understand what you're sayin' tales. So, if a log was originally cut to 24" long with a diameter of 12", it would probably still be close to 24" long but may only be 10 inches in diameter? I'm confused. :P
So, everything may still fit together lengthwise but will be significantly shrunken in terms of the girth?
-
My dining table top is a good example of shrinking.
See how the grain runs along the length of the bottom of the picture? The shrinking occurs not in that direction but sideways in the direction that all the pegs are lined up, across the table. The grain tightens up and the pegs have nowhere to go but up and out! To answer the log question, my understanding is that you probably wouldn't loose a full two inches, (unless it was a huge log) but yes that's the idea. The length would stay the same and you might loose 1/4" or 1/2" in the diameter of the log as the grain tightened.
(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x124/talesofthesevenseas/Dining/Dining7.jpg)
-
Lol, I don't think you could have made it any more "idiot proof" for me tales. I understand now. :)
Thanks again for the advice! I sure hope I'm buyin' somethin' really old.
-
I was wrong about the year, it's 1832.
I have a ton of pics but didn't want to make multiple posts. tales, do you think it's really old?
I can take pics of the nails, too. There are only 3 or 4 on the legs.
-
Looking up close at the pegs and the 1832, the pegs sure look like they are popping out due to wood shrinkage, and the cracking of the wood seems to be going right through the date, like it was carved prior to the splitting, but I should let the others weigh in on that.
But what bothers me is that I don't see the same kind of effect on the hearts and flower pot, like perhaps they were a later addition. Again, others could weigh in on that too. Also I see two different artists hands at work here. Look at the knife strokes in 1832 and compare to the heart and flower pot.
But the handle looks great, lots of wear in the right spots.
I cast my vote that the date is correct and the cutesy stuff added later. I think you have a lovely treasure there!
-
You know tales, I was thinkin' the same thing about the decoration part being added later. I just can't tell. Here's another pic of the decoration and red colored paint. The style of the carving seems slightly different but very similar at the same time. Maybe he used a different tool? The initials are "P.B."
You can also see how the peg of the handle is being slowly pushed out that end.
-
This looks like the work of the same person who carved 1832 to me. Something in the style of the hand, like the differences in a person's handwriting. Also notice the cracks going through the lettering like the carving predates the age cracks. This is really cool Wendy, love it! Looking forward to reading the replies on this one!
-
Very nice old rustic item , hosman321 .
I like !
My guesses on the item go like this -
I see 2 types of carving - ones done 'freehand' (hearts , flowers , initials) and others that might have been carved with the aid of a scribed or penciled line(s) ('diamond' carved area , date) drawing on the wood .
Perhaps the 'handle end' of the unit was more protected from sunlight & the elements than the rest of the unit , and the finish on that ends seems much more intact .
I'm guessin' that the womenfolk were in charge of this gaget , thus the fancy hearts & flowers to look at on the blister-end of this tool .
If the menfolk of the day were using this one themselves , I'd bet good money that they'd of carved snips & snails & puppy-dog tails .
Kinda hard to imagine considering such an item as a convenience , as it was in it's day .
I get grumpy if I've got to sew on a button !
-
Hosman, I put these 2 objects out on my deck this morning and took a picture of them, one on top of the other.
Do you know what these 2 related objects are? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Cool, flax stuff! It said it under your picture, but I would have guessed flax linen anyways. No, really, I would have! ;D
I want to find a little flax blanket to hang on it, that would be cool to show. Thanks for thinkin' of me and takin' the picture of your stuff. :)
I think I'm going to put this breaker in that big 8 foot display case I have. The legs are slightly wobbly and old and I'd be devastated if someone broke them. Plus, everybody is gonna want to play with it and lift the handle up and down. Which is ok, but all of my husband's 20-something army friends are less than graceful. We'll just put it that way. Thanks for all the help guys, I have more confidence now that I didn't buy a modern repro.
Oh, and one last question. How would I go about preserving this breaker? Am I supposed to do anything to the wood? I'd love to see it live past 200 years, and the cracks are fairly deep in places. I'm worried about putting furniture polish on it. And I don't want this to look all shiny and oily. Does it need some sort of hydration? Thanks!
-
hosman, I agree with the two different kinds of engraving done by 2 different persons. Also agree that the wood is old and worn in the proper places....so the people helping resolve this are doing a super duper job!
The only thing that I can lend some insight into your initial question of "Primitive Tools, what do I look for?" is
possible...primitiv e people?! :)
(http://dallasvintageshop.com/wp-content/uploads/Image/ancient/cave-MAN.jpg)
-
:D :D :D :D :D :D All I can think of is "What's in your wallet?"
-
One really long-term method of preserving the wood on an item like yours (a bit of a daunting process for those who do it 'solo') is using polyethylene glycol .
A person should really bone-up on the process , though (as well as being hip to the hazards) , prior to messin' with it .
I've taken part in preservation projects where any other method would fail to bring satisfactory results , including wooden shipwreck items and extremely dryed/desiccated carved wooden items .
An old article about PEG , from 1972 , I think , can be found at the link below .
More current papers can be found on-line too .
http://owic.oregonstate.edu/pubs/peg.pdf
-
The Oregon State article might be a good one to add to the special section out front, don't you think? Maybe we should start up a wood care section?
I agree, it is really interesting the way that shipwreck items, and things like tree circles that have been underwater for eons have to be treated. If I remember correctly, sometimes the wreck items have to stay in salt water in vats and have to be gradually be phased out of it because it is the exposure to the air that does them in. There have been some neat archaeological recovery projects in recent years like the presumed Queen Anne's Revenge (Positive ID as Blackbeard's flag ship has not been accomplished, but they are pretty sure this is the QAR) and the recovery of the Hunley, an early Civil War submarine.
Here is the QAR Web site:
http://www.qaronline.org/ (http://www.qaronline.org/)
Here is the CSS HL Hunley site:
http://www.hunley.org/ (http://www.hunley.org/)
Here is a starting link for Seahenge the ancient tree circle in the UK:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/388988.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/388988.stm)
-
Sorry to bring up an old thread but would this be considered folk art? Here's the definition, I am just curious if I would call it that or not...
Folk art encompasses art produced from an indigenous culture or by peasants or other laboring tradespeople. In contrast to fine art, folk art is primarily utilitarian and decorative rather than purely aesthetic.
So....does that mean that folk art is usually something useful, but art or decoration was put onto it?
-
I'd certainly call the work on your item 'folk art' !
I've seen so many items that were re-used as folk art 'canvases' .
Some of the older ones have left me with the impression that the owners would maybe think "That's too good to throw out!" & then proceed to decorate it .
Lots of folk art has been put on items that have become broken (cast iron pans , for example) or have somehow fallen into dis-use .
Then there are all the utilitarian items folks 'personalized' & used daily .
I also speculate that sometimes people thought that an item was so ugly that it needed to be covered up with some paint (like we do today) .
All that being said , I think folk art (antique stuff , that is) served to help make a hard-scrabble existence a little less drab .
I'd guess that this part of being human is still going on today , however easily it can be accomplished (is a 'custom ring-tone' , or a bumper-sticker folk art ?) .
I think that "Bedazzler" decorated/defaced items will be a niche for collectors of folk art , in the future .
As much as humans have isolated themselves from the forces of nature , it seems to me that we still want to have reminders of it in our homes , however idealized it may be , in images on dining-ware , furniture , paintings & photos , clocks & so forth .
-
Now that I got to thinking about this thing again, I have a quick question. What are the impressions (that look kind of like little squares/lattice) that are on the ends of some wood pieces? Is it kind of decorative? Also, I forgot to mention a long time ago that I found another set of initials. "FID" is to the right in the pictures. I wonder if those first initials were the woman's initials. Or maybe it was 2 different people doin' the decoration. I was just curious about those impressions.
-
Just looks like the worn cross grains of the wood that have been rasped to me...in turn looks like a woven basket sorta'!
-
It does not look like a rasp mark to me. It looks like the design was pressed/stamped into the wood on purpose. I enlarged it and then looked at it at 200% to see the design better. It was probably done to make the end grain, which is usually rough, more appealing to the eye. A nice detail that could link this piece to other pieces by the same maker, if one is lucky enough to find some.
-
I wasn't around when this was first posted so I'll say it now.... WOW - This is lovely!
It looks like a rasp was was whacked with a hammer to leave an impression on those ends. The fact that someone took the time to decorate them seems someone really cared about this piece when it was being made. But I know very little...
Joe - nice to hear your opinion about Folk Art. My G-Pa who was a young man during the Depression painted scenes on everything and would re purpose them them throughout the house. I never appreciated (or really thought about) why he did this until I was much older. We are such a throw away society these days and that's a concept I'm sure he would struggle with if still alive. It does give you an Ah-Ha moment when thinking about the origins of folk art.
Wayward... we were posting at the same time ;D
-
Not a rasp. A whacked rasp would leave deeper triangular impressions where the teeth would indent. The impressions on the end grain on this are flat with raised cross bars.
I could whack some end grain with a large rasp and post a pic but I couldn't impress this design with anything I have. On the tool, the rectangular impressions would be raised and the cross bars would be indented. I am not sure what would make that.
-
It looks to me like they were made with one (1) good whack of a hammer.
So maybe it was a special tool made to "blossom out" (expand) the end grain of pegs and tenons so that they would not pull back out or come apart ...... because of shrinkage from drying out.
-
Yeah, I always thought they were made with one good whack of a tool too. I just didn't know if they were added to look pretty or had an actual purpose. But somehow they don't seem very sharp like a tool hit the wood real good, they do seem more like they were pressed in. I can take different pics if they will help.
I have always thought it would be amazing to find out who made it and for whom but I know the chances of that are slim to none. I'd have to find another like it online and I haven't been able to yet. There are some smaller dated ones but nothing that mention initials or is the same style.
How cool would this be to go with it? :P
http://www.auctionflex.com/showlot.ap?co=2887&weid=11156&weiid=3908016&mindate=19900101&maxdate=20501231&lso=lotnumasc&pagenum=4&action=PreviousLotInAuction&lang=En
-
And wayward, you are the tool man! Do you know the name of the tool that was used to make the "flower" type marks that surround the FID? That'd be cool to find on ebay and put with it. Thanks!
-
OK, you got me, hosman. I just got home from Friday night fish and had a few Spotted Cows (Wisconsin beer) and I do not know what FID is. What is FID?
-
lol wayward. FID are the carved initials that I found in the last picture I posted. Some sort of round shaped tool was used to make the markings on the right hand side of the picture. Just curious what the tool might be so I can find one. :)
-
;D ;D ;D OK, I see them now. They are very faint. I can't tell how big or small they are but it would be my guess they were made with the head of rosehead nails.
It is tough to get a good pic of the nail head but here is another copper one by itself showing the head only. (copper roseheads were used by boatbuilders)
-
The main thing to remember is these decorations were made by whatever the woodworker had on hand that would produce a nice effect on the wood. And now that I think of it, the head of a meat tenderizer hammer might produce the other pattern on the end grain parts.
-
I never even thought about them being from nails, I think you're right about that. Same pattern and size. Thanks for figuring that one out. :)