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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: hosman321 on June 09, 2010, 02:31:24 PM
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So, I finally got this today. I was all excited and opened it up. It looks really cool. It looks really old. But I think it's a repro. I came to that determination very quickly for one reason. Where there would be a screw, there is just an impression of a screw. Like someone made this one from a real one that had a screw in it. Does this absolutely mean it's a repro? Is it possible that way back when, someone made a mold from one with a screw in it? Does anybody know of the iron processes from long ago? When I search for authentic ones online, some have screws/holes and some don't.
This little thing seriously weighs about a million pounds, I think I strained my back carrying it inside. I am having a hard time believing someone would recreate an authentic one and have it be this heavy. If it was going to be a decoration, it would be very inconvenient. I don't even know where to put it because I'm afraid of it breaking my shelves etc. So...antique, vintage or brand spanking new? No markings at all. No traces of paint. You can slightly see the screw impression in the first pic, on the bottom.
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I put it on the scale and it weighs 25 pounds. It's only 10" tall!
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From what I think I see in your images , hosman321 , it appears that yours was made from (in) a metal mold , which is/was intended to simulate a sand-cast item .
I'm guessing that the original sand-cast horse head served the purpose of being the form for making the mold .
I'd guess a more modern manufacture date than the style of the horsehead depicts .
Pretty rough work done on the mold/flash lines also indicates this to me .
On the upside of my opinion , the horsehead from which it was cast was possibly an antique one .
I'm also thinking that your item may have been produced in an asian country ?
It sure looks tough enough to hitch a team to !
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Super disappointing. :(
That's what I get though for buying on ebay with no guarantees. Oh well. I'll probably sell it if it is a repro. It's cool, but I have lots of "cool" stuff. It just doesn't have that history attached to it that I crave. Good thing I didn't spend a fortune. Here's the ad. And I can't really leave negative feedback because it wasn't listed as an antique. You live and learn, eh?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360264294536&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
Wait a sec, it was listed as an antique. Hmm...I guess I could write him politely and see what he says. But I want to be sure first that it's modern.
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It could also just be an old & crude-ishly cast item .
It takes a pretty heavy mold to cast an item as massive as this horsehead is .
Thinner molds will tend to warp , over time , & will show lots of 'leakage' of the casted metal @ the seams .
I'm thinking WW1 to WW2-ish age .
Early on , Old Chairman Mao made the peasants make pig-iron in their back yards , so as to provide base metal for export and domestic uses .
This one would be worth seeing in person , so as to be able to answer for sure .
I wouldn't give up looking around for another one just like it with some provenance (other than hear-say) .
Lets see what others say !
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http://www.figuralcastiron.org/
I'm sure those guys would know in a second. But I can't really spend $40 right now. It's worth the membership but my husband is in California right now and I promised I wouldn't spend a dime on antique stuff. :P
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I think I found my exact horse head. The only problem is that they don't seem 100 percent sure that theirs is truly old either. The traces of paint look authentic on theirs, it's kinda hard to replicate really weathered paint. I wonder if I should write them...
http://www.trocadero.com/stores/Highgrover/items/995017/item995017.html
Clicking on the picture shows bigger pictures. Theirs appears to have the hole for a ring. I can't see a screw because that part is in the lamp base. Lots of old ones don't have rings though. I wonder if that is another indicator that mine was cast from an original mold and they just filled in the hole with iron. I'd be thrilled if mine was even from the 20's, when hitching posts were fading out of history. I wouldn't be too disappointed if it's not from the 1800's.
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I emailed the figural cast iron site and he emailed me back super fast. Said to send him pics so he can try to authenticate it. Crossin' my fingers he can tell if it's a repro or not. I'll be super disappointed if this thing was made in China like...last year. Very nice of him to offer to help me, most clubs I ask for help say that I'll have to join in order to get advice.
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Well he said it looks real to him and not a reproduction. Now I feel good about getting it so cheap. ;)
But he said I'd have to take it to an expert in hitching posts to be sure. Yeah, sure, where the heck do I find one of those? ???
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Any Amish in your area? I am not an expert on hitching posts but I have seen a few. I also have seen many cast iron items. The newness of the rust is a red flag as is the new bright grind marks on the bottom. I also do not like the offset mold line on the head. Close your eyes and run your hands over this post. Does it feel like a rough sand casting or is the surface smooth. Sometimes our eyes want to tell us one thing when our other senses should be used. I am leaning towards a newer casting rather than an antique one but you are the one that can examine this in person and go with your gut feeling. JMO. :)
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I just typed out the longest reply and then the page just closed. GRRR...
Went something like this...
No Amish in my area, I'm afraid. :P
I have no idea what to think of it, that's why I wrote that club. I don't have much experience with iron. The casting is really sandy, I told him it was sandy. The scrape or tool? marks are smooth, of course. They are all over it. He said it didn't matter about the screw impression and it didn't matter that there wasn't a ring hole. I don't know. I wonder who I could take it to around here that would actually know the difference and wouldn't just be guessing. I really hate having items and not being able to say for sure if it's new or old. I collect things because of their history, not because they look like something with history.
Oh, and the rust does look much more red in the pics than in person. I just have a really bright flash I guess. It's more brownish-red.
Here's a few more pics of the surface, it case it makes any difference.
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I don't know...this is a hitching post so where the ropes or leather reins were looped/tied to it, there should be smoothness from repeated hitching. Is there any evidence of hitching? If there is none, then I think this is new.
I like the color of the nose but not the grind marks on the seam. The forehead looks like newer rust. As for an expert, I would look for someone that deals/collects cast iron cookware, old water pumps, door stops, etc. They should be able to tell old iron from new and let you know what to look for.
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That's great that they feel it is original! Wayward has a point. If you're tying up your horse, it's usually at a horizontal rail, rather than an upright pole, unless that pole has a ring in it. It could be that a ring was mounted further down on the pole. Your seller said that it was from an old pole at an old barn and that certainly speaks well of it. I would contact them again, and just let them know you want to learn the history of the piece- What was the pole like, where was it located in proximity to the barn or house and was there a second ring.
When you tie off a horse you do it with a slip knot. This is because horses occasionally get spooked and do what's called "pulling back" where they heave their full weight backwards. If you tie a regular knot, you can't free the panicked horse because the knot will tighten. With a slip knot the horses end will hold fast, but you have an end to pull that enables you to free the horse if you need to.
If you tied off to an upright metal post pole, it woud be slippery and the knot would slip to the bottom of the pole. This could easily allow the horse to become entangled in the lead line. That's why hitching rails are horizontal and high up, and hitching posts usually have a ring of some sort, to keep the knot from slipping down. There are exceptions though. In my little ol' logging town, we have a few old hitching rings embedded in the concrete sidewalks. These are low, only giving about 6" or 8" between where the horse is standing at the curb and where the ring is mounted. I suspect these were added during the transition period from horses to cars and that prior to that a more horse-friendly horizontal rail would have been in place. Tying off to a slippery metal upright pole is also a bit more difficult when you tie the slip knot, and it also has a much greater likelihood of loosening up as the horse moves around and the knot is slipping around.
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Also good hitching post points, Tales. I just looked at a bunch of cast iron horse head images and hitching post pages and did not see a head that looks like this, hosman. So that is a good thing. I would imagine repros would be all over the place. Another thought I had was this head may not have been for a hitching post (thus no ring) but may be a fancy fence post topper for a wrought iron fence or gate pillar?
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Good points tales, now I'm super confused about what to think of this horse. :)
I still remember how to tie slip knots from when I used to ride, so I definitely know what you mean about it sliding. I think the ones without rings were just used to quickly wrap your reins around, maybe for short pit stops. And the ones with rings may have been used at places where people had to stay a bit longer. At the figural cast iron site, you can also see that some of them don't have rings or holes for rings. Like the black horse head and the eagle. Maybe mine really did have the ring on the actual pole and not on the head.
http://www.figuralcastiron.org/hitchingposts.html
I think I'll write the seller and ask if he knows more. I also noticed he sold another one exactly like mine he supposedly got at the same ranch. I wish I would have known, I would have bought both. I wish I could get ahold of that Phil and Bunny Savino couple on the iron site but I don't know how to contact them. They seem like the type of people that would know a repro from an antique.
Here's one in use like wayward suggested, as a gate topper. Maybe the one that was turned into a lamp on that one site had a ring hole because they made it for a hitching post. But maybe the same company also made it without ring holes for use as other decorations.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/melissasteep/4052410177/
It'd be an awfully heavy thing on a gate though. Then again, we're not used to that these days. Everything is plastic, resin or aluminum. Nothing is solid anymore.
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Well, looks like I get to go to my first show. Sounds like a great place to take this thing. Do you think these guys would know? It's a bit of a drive but worth it.
http://www.palmerwirfs.com/html/p_p05_evalate_id.html
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Sounds like fun but I do not see any "experts" in iron except for the machinery guy. I think he would be the one of all of them to tell if your horse head is old iron or not. How far of a drive is it?
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Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. It would be a two hour drive. That same show will be in my area in November and it would be a 15 min drive. But Id rather go to a show in the summer than in the cold November weather. In Washington we get maybe one month of sunshine and the rest of the year is pretty dark and wet. I guess it wouldn't hurt to take it along and ask them since I want to go to the show anyways, ya know? If they didn't know, at least I only lost five dollars and it was donated anyways.
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Oh, so this is an antique show and an appraisal fair? Then I would go because look at all the good stuff you can see and you never know what is there. Maybe a treasure. I initially thought this was just an appraisal fair. Now you can kill two birds with one stone. Sounds like fun.
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Yeah, it's mainly a show with just a booth for appraisals. I've never been to one before. Anything special I should know? :)
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Sounds like a fun way to spend a weekend to me! I'd say go for it, get the appraisal, put the horse back in your trunk then have fun browsing! ;D
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Hosman321 , I'd say : wear comfy shoes !
Be prepared for waiting in lines , esp for appraisal areas .
Many 'higher-end' items , in my experience , are priced @ retail level and above (by the 'major' exhibitors) .
Chances are pretty fair that you'll see some wonderful/unusual and unique antiques !
If you're looking for something specific , it pays to take the exhibitor 'aside' and ask if they've got such an item (also ask if they've got more 'things' in their trailers , etc -if you're really serious about buying , that is) .
They've usually chatted with other exhibitors/dealers at the show & might know another who has got what you're looking for .
One of my favorite tactics is to 'dress down' a little & wear NO BLING , esp if there's an auction involved .
Sneaky old-man tricks . :) :) :)
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This dang horse head is gonna be the death of me, I swear.
I wrote that website that had the same head made into a lamp. She sent me this link. She used to have a pair but someone only wanted the rusted out one. I guess now I'm pretty convinced the actual mold/design is antique and not some recently created mold. The question is just weather or not mine was made from an old mold and if they actually do that. In the third pic, you can see the rusted out one. That would take an awfully long time to reproduce! And hers do have ring holes, unlike mine.
http://highgroveantiques.bigcartel.com/product/pair-of-heavy-hitching-post-lamps
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Any Amish in your area? I am not an expert on hitching posts but I have seen a few. I also have seen many cast iron items. The newness of the rust is a red flag as is the new bright grind marks on the bottom. I also do not like the offset mold line on the head. Close your eyes and run your hands over this post. Does it feel like a rough sand casting or is the surface smooth. Sometimes our eyes want to tell us one thing when our other senses should be used. I am leaning towards a newer casting rather than an antique one but you are the one that can examine this in person and go with your gut feeling. JMO. :)
Wayward, I forgot to ask you this...
When you said to feel if it is smooth or rough, which would suggest that it was older? Would a smooth one be newer or the other way around? Because it's very sandy and not smooth at all. Just curious!
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A smooth one would be older. Newer castings tend to be rougher. This is not set in stone but just how things tend to be. An old iron surface would be more oxidized so more pores would be filled and thus the surface would be smoother to the touch. It is hard to tell from photos but should be easy to tell in person. Old iron has a different look from being exposed to the air for years as compared with newer iron with newer rust. I am not an iron expert but newer rust on anything has a more orange appearance. I see this on tools all the time that have recently been exposed to water and then rust forms.
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Hi, just surfed a few items and I'd Like to comment on yours. I'm not an expert , but what you have is a cast iron fence post cap. They're made in mexico and now in china. I saw them in my wrought iron suppliers catalog. It's not terribly old. 80's, 90's or even newer. As a kid, I remember going to my great-aunts house in what is now known as Old Town in beautiful Chicago. This was in the 50's and believe it or not, horsehead hitching posts were still left on the sidewalk as a novelty in front of certain addresses on Clark and North streets. across from the chicago Historical Society. If you walk the neighborhood you will see a few around in people's front yard. They're probably the ones that used to be on the street. I recently saw a pair in an antique store, but I'm saving my money for that lawn jockey that no one ever gets me for my birthday.
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Oh, by the way, I forgot to mention that there's suppose to be a large steel ring through the snout to tie the reigns.
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All very true, chigato. :)
Technically, these have been made from the 1800's until today, they have been in continuous production. Which makes it so hard to date. The most difficult part is figuring out when a solid piece of iron was made. Iron is tricky. There are no dates, only telltale signs that an expert needs to see. The texture, the rust and the type of casting are probably the only ways to know. And I don't know any of those things!
I am thinking about actually paying a decent amount of money to get it looked at by an iron or hitching post expert. I got it so cheap, I actually wouldn't mind paying. This head just haunts me every time I walk into the room, it's driving me crazy! Another thing that's so confusing is seeing that pair from the woman. It takes many years for iron to rust all the way through like that. Then again, many years could be 20 years. And it's the same mold as mine. I just don't know if the old mold was used for a new cast, a new mold made from an old head or if this is an original. Someone on the forum has offered to look at it for me, I am excited to see what he says. :) I'll let ya all know what happens! I probably won't be paying an expert any time soon though. My husband's job is firing him because he is disabled and we're probably going to spend a fortune on a lawyer if we can't find one to see our case on contingency. Or, we'll have to see if the VA will help. I also won't be allowed to get anything new if we have to go through with this. Sigh...life's not working out for us right now! We're going to be very busy.
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Sorry to hear about your hubby's employer troubles! My husband is disabled too and I know it can be difficult. Feel free to email or pm me if you ever feel like girl talk.
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Thank you tales! Depending on how everything goes I may definitely need someone to talk to. The last month has been a living hell but we are hoping they won't fire him. On the bright side, if they do fire him, he'll get unemployment because he didn't do anything wrong. It's already hard enough having severe, painful arthritis your entire life. And hard enough going through war and fighting for your country. When you get home and just want to start your life over and your job wants to fire you after living a 4 year nightmare...it's really stressful. He's had a harder life than any 23 year old should ever have. I just pray they don't go through with it. My biggest fear is having to sell any of my antiques to make ends meet! :(
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Yes, hosman, sorry to hear about your husband's problems after serving our country admirably for years. I hope everything works out for you and your husband.
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Yeah that's a lot to go through, for both of you. My hubby is a vet too, but we're a generation older. ;) Email me anytime.
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Thanks guys and gals. I just want it to be over. Today was another stressful day with the whole thing and we contacted the best employment law firm in Seattle. Hoping they take it. I need to take my mind off everything and antique talk is the best way to do that. ;)
I bought this book, I am hoping it has some good tips. For 4 bucks, at least I didn't lose much.
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Bringing up a super old post! I see that my old pictures disappeared when we had that issue with the forum awhile back.
I bought another hitching post exactly like my previous one but I'm fairly positive that the one I just got is authentic. Still not sure what to think of the previous one. The one I just bought has an iron ring, the previous one does not even have a hole for a ring. The previous one has a very sandy texture, the one I just got does not. The one I just got is hollow inside, the previous one is filled solid and is at least twice the weight. The detail is much better and clearer on the one I just got. The one I just bought has old paint traces, the previous one does not.
I have seen this exact horse head about 10 times since my last post. Some look brand spanking new and some look very old and authentic. Either there are some mint condition ones out there or someone is making repros. Or, I have no idea what I am talking about and both are old. I don't know how to tell the difference with iron. Here are a few of them:
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/8177110
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item231c73cf47&item=150801207111&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&si=sYGy88PYK53lKwdZEznGRt2LQBk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc#ht_614wt_1396
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&hash=item5ae62570c9&item=390408270025&nma=true&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&rt=nc&si=sYGy88PYK53lKwdZEznGRt2LQBk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc#ht_2980wt_1163
Here is the link to that one I saw a long time ago.
http://www.antiques.com/classified/1123880/Antique-Antique-Horse-Head-Hitching-Post-Lamp
They mention that it is supposedly from London. So, I went to the London patent site but it is temporarily down so I will have to try it later. That lamp was one of a pair and I remember that the other one was hollow and was rusted completely through to the inside.
I really would love to find info about this specific design. It's obviously not terribly rare so there has to be info about it somewhere!
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Solid one.
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Here's a good page on identifying fake antique cast iron by the manufacturing techniques: http://www.coxsackie.com/reference/ironfake.htm (http://www.coxsackie.com/reference/ironfake.htm)
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Thank you for the link, tales. It seems that both of them may be repros according to that site, which would REALLY upset me and I'd be out a lot of money! The one I just got just looks so old though and the paint traces are so convincing. I don't know...
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One thing that makes me think yours may be authentic is that the tips of the ears are filed down. Horses love to rub there faces when they are tied up. They get sweaty and itchy under their bridles. Sharp pointy ears is an invitation to gouge an eye. The way yours appear filed down makes me think it may have been in use with horses. We should be able to look at how the ring was welded together for more clues. As I understand it, we can tell modern welding techniques from antique, but I don't know a lot about it and we'll have to find a page on it. That would be a good addition to the Special Threads section too...
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I would bet that the first one,, without the ring,,was originally part of a pair !! Toppers for a rail with crossbar,, an H type !! Would have a decorative horse head on each end horses were tied along the cross bar !! One with the ring was for a single post !!
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That's true mart, didn't think of that! The one without a ring could have also just been a fence topper, for decoration only. I just don't want them to be modern repros from China! Hey, the one with a ring would be a cool towel holder in the bathroom. It would need some kind of stand though. :)
I'll take a picture of the weld on the ring in a few minutes.
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I'm having trouble finding anything on identifying antique welding techniques. Is anyone else finding anything? Apparently the weld left by a modern welder is different. I saw this on American Pickers the other night but I can't find info on it online.
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That's true mart, didn't think of that! The one without a ring could have also just been a fence topper, for decoration only. I just don't want them to be modern repros from China! Hey, the one with a ring would be a cool towel holder in the bathroom. It would need some kind of stand though. :)
I'll take a picture of the weld on the ring in a few minutes.
That would be an easy fix for a towel rack/stand !! Find an old pole lamp with a decorative base, remove the pole from the base, mount a turned, decorative pole to the base and put the horse head on the top of it !! Finish to your taste !! Those old pole lamp bases are pretty heavy so it would be good and stable for your bath room !!
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Good link. Getting more and more wary of the one with no ring. Maybe even the one with the ring.
http://blog.rubylane.com/node/60
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Nice to see this thread again , hosman321 !
It appears as if there are 2 'stops' (for a round metal fence/etc. pole) cast into the interior of the hollow equestrian item ... is this so , or are my eyes talking before my brain kicks in , again ?
From your side-by-side photo , it appears as if the 'first' solid head has traces of sky-bluish paint , while the new-to-you head is a (?) reddish or weathered white color ?
You could certainly test for lead in the paint of both , which might help/lead to determine age &/or non-U.S. origin ....
As 'post toppers/finials' these also might have been used , in conjunction with lengths of chain , for gardens/walkways/amusement rides/horsetrack gardens , etc .
As before , hands-on is best for I.D.-ing .... long research project , hosman (kinda like trying to tap-dance in a tar-pit) !!!
Then again , slow & steady has won some races .... :)
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Couldn't they be castings. The one horse with the ring looks like two castings put together? Let me ask my husband. When we first got married he was a blacksmith.
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My husband says you would use a nickel rod to weld that, but he thought they were castings that are sealed together. If you had to fix it now he would use a monster glue. Any type of welding you would have to do reshaping.
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So sorry for the late reply! The one that is split open a little is two pieces welded together with little welds on the inside. The welds are still intact. They are definitely both cast in molds, they just both have very different manufacturing techniques so I think one or both are repros! The first, solid head just has dust on it regjoe, no paint traces at all. It's just hard to get dust out of the sand casting without getting it wet. When that one gets wet, it rusts very easy! I was thinking about testing the one with white paint for lead but then I realized that a lot of repros were being made in the 70s and lead paint was used until the 70s. And plus, if they are from some questionable factory in China, they are probably still using lead paint these days.
I applied for tickets to the Roadshow and will know day after tomorrow if I got tickets. I was thinking about taking these just so that maybe they can tell me how to spot repro cast iron in the future and to settle my nerves about these two! I'd get to take 4 items, so I'd have to find two other things to take. I still didn't take more pictures of them, I completely forgot! I will soon.
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I hope you get the tickets. My husband and I went and had a great time. I guess that why we galvanized everything now. My husband worked in a forge for many years. I bet if we did research on blacksmiths back then they wouldn't have lived long lives because of the graphite. It's very interesting. My husband has done a lot of historical restoration on buildings in Old Philadelphia. He would have to see them better. My brother in law owned the company he worked for then. They've been around for 100 yrs. or more. They just bought out Yellen. I don't know if I spelled that right, lol. They had one of their lamps, $$$. They are very familiar with these things, but Antique Roadshow is much better ;D lol
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If you don't get tickets in the Roadshow lottery, look on Craiglist. People often enter the lottery in hope of getting tickets to resell.