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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: areinhar on August 04, 2010, 02:39:54 PM
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Found this with some old stuff in a box. Anyone that have some idea what it is?
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It has an Austro/Hungarian look to it, or German. Some sort of crest, double headed eagle over a shield, with what looks like a lion perhaps?
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Also looks to be an orb and scepter on either side (low) of the eagles.
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Have found this about what I believe is the symbol on your piece - the Byzantine double-headed eagle
How similar did this look to the Russian double-headed eagle, the supposed descendant of the Paleologues eagle?
Some background for it: Michael VIII Paleologue adopted this symbol after he had reconquered Constantinople from the Crusaders in 1261. It represented looking towards the East (Asia Minor, traditional power center of the Byzantine-government in exile after the IVth Crusade) and theWest (newly reconquered land in Europe.)
The double-headed eagle had in the two centuries of Paleologue rule become identified not just with the dynasty but with the Empire itself and, more generally, with institutions and cultural ideas outside the Byzantine Empire that still remained centered on Constantinople.
Most obvious of these is the Greek Orthodox Church, centered in theory in Istanbul to this day, and so it is not surprising that the Church would use the flag.
Less obvious is the reason for its use by the Russians... In 1453 a flood of Byzantine churchmen and nobles fleeing the Ottomans ended up in Moscow, center of the last free major Orthodox polity. This more or less coincided with the adoption of the title of czar (Caesar, or Emperor) by the former Princes of Suzdal who had been ruling from Moscow and had united much of the Russian-speaking world. Moscow began to be referred to as "the Third Rome" (Constantinople being the second), and the Czars saw themselves as successors in the Orthodox world to the Byzantine emperors. Thus the adoption of the double-headed eagle by them. This is the flag of the Greek Orthodox Church http://www.flags-of-the-world.net/images/g/gr_ortdx.gif
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It looks like it was cut from some larger piece- like a robe perhaps and preserved when the rest of the robe became too old to wear? Beautiful work though and it would look lovely in a shadowbox. I hope this can be identified, it's quite an interesting one! What was the rest of the old stuff you found, was this something from your family?
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Not too sure of what it originally was attached to, but I do think that it's Czech.
(Notice the lion below the double-headed eagle)
Perhaps part of a hat or cap?
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The lower left portion appears to have had some sort of binding. Where it has pulled away it shows signs of the original color (purple ?). Could this possibly have been a crest?
Areinhar, what are the dimensions of your piece, any idea of the material and also, was this found with family items? If so, what nationalities or regions?
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Is the embroidery material or hair?
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The size is about six inches by four inches, the embroidery seems to be some sort of metal, maybe silver.
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I was going to ask if it was metal. Silver wire has been used since at least the 1500's, probably earlier. Like this baby bonnet I have been drooling over.
:P
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360281502784&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
To me, yours looks 18th century (1700's).
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Came across this. It seems to have some strong similarities. Based on the Russian Imperial Coat of Arms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Russia
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Some similarities here, taken from this site http://www.militaryrelics.com/photos/story.cfm?id=5255
H-12 Imperial Russian E.M. brass belt buckle. Convex, "clipped corners", with a large crowned two-headed Russian eagle with a shield of St. George on its chest. Circa 1905 - 1917. II................. ..................9 5.00
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/H-012-1.jpg)
H-46 Early 1930's SA Brigade Fuhrer single shoulder board. Well defined gold oak leaves/four acorns metal insignia attached to a gold interwoven bullion cord base. Velvet blue underlay - listed in early 1933 as worn by an SA - Verwaltungsfuhrer. II..............75. 00
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/geeziesmom/H-046.jpg)
If it is Russian here is a forum and it's parent website where you may be able to get some advice/information/history
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/
http://www.alexanderpalace.org/palace/
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Another site to scan ;) ......
http://www.heraldicum.ru/russia/family.htm
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On this site you can follow the development of the national emblem from the fifteenth century. Just click on the smaller symbols in the list on the right for an enlargement and the history of the empire.
http://rf.boom.ru/eng01.html
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http://the.heraldry.ru/text/briefsurvey.html
Several options to choose from in left hand column.......I haven't checked them out yet ;)
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Everyone and their uncle used the double headed eagle, I've ran into this before. It was originaly a Roman symbol. This one does look Russian, but there were others that looked very similar. Just look up Double Headed Eagle on Wikipedia.com
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I mailed a person in Russia that is an expert on heraldry, and he quickly replied me. The piece is Montenegrin. http://the.heraldry.ru/text/montenegro.html (http://the.heraldry.ru/text/montenegro.html) .But I still dont know what it is any way. Since the lion is below the eagle, the piece may be from after 1730-ies.
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I sent an email to the national museum in Montenegro. They told me that it is from the bonnet of a Montenegrin national costume.Then I guess the mystery is solved.
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VERY cool! Thanks for following up with the info. It is great that you took the initiative and did the in-depth research on this piece. WELL DONE!! ;D
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Nice job and thanks for letting us in on the results!
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It seems that the mystery was not solved after all. I talked to an antique expert here in my country, and he did not agree that it is from a national costume. First of all after closer examination, the thread is made of gold(because of all the dirt it was difficult to see), and the original background color is purple(velvet). Very expensive materials in the 18th century. Because of this facts, he argued that it may be from some sort of king guardians costume. But of course that is just a theory, so I guess I have to investigate a little more.
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Interesting!! Keep us posted!
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Got this from an another antique expert, interesting theory:
This might well be the bottom side of a gaming purse. Gaming
purses were made with a circular, stiffened base and the gathered sides
were formed from a narrow circle of cloth such as velvet, which
released to form an open container for coins or gaming chips. Many were
monogrammed to ensure that takings were claimed by their rightful owners.
Even though the coat of arms might have been inspired by the Coat of
Arms of Montenegro, they look quite fantasist and, in our opinion, they
don't particularly refer to a Royal provenance.
Link to similar item:
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O170926/gaming-purse/