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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: marcylove on October 20, 2010, 10:14:09 PM
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These paintings were part the estate. They are oil paintings on canvas, and I need help identifying when exactly they were painted. They need to be cleaned, but have been in these original frames for a while. They are both signed by the same name that I can only guess as 'Allen (B. E. L?) Morris?) Which does not register on the internet at all. >:(
The Robert E. Lee painting is a painting of an earlier version of him, so I'm wondering if was painted around the beginning of the war, 1860 or so).
I'm looking for any kind of help in identifying the artist, the time period these were painted, and about what they may be worth. I have several e-mails out to galleries, but appraisals are very expensive. :-\
Any info would be greatly appreciated! Thanks! :)
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here are pics of the back and signature.
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Very nice portraits that I think need to be looked at in person and out of the frames by an expert. It is odd for an artist to sign the back of the paintings. It is possible the name "Allen * Morris" is for whom the portraits were painted and is not the painter's name.
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Agree with wayward they need a hands on inspection by an expert they seem to be very well done by an expert hand, also agree most artists sign the piece itself & not the backs. Try sending photos to a very large auction house even if you do not wish to sell if they show intrest they will give you an auction estimate.
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Agree with everyone else... They are stunning to my untrained eye and a professional is your best bet.
The one of Jackson is a common portrait by that I mean it has been painted by several professional and unprofessional artists throughout the years. Those portraits are painted (again... untrained eye) from pics from a sitting he did 2 weeks before he died. You can find several examples here: http://www.moc.org/site/PageServer?pagename=gallery_jackson_photos_chancellorsville None of them match exactly tho...
Can anyone date the frame? I notice it is either dovetailed or tongue & groove in 4 places...
Also... On the first pic of the back of the frame am I seeing another signiture? by the Welches Box... Looks like it starts with a "T" and there is an "M"...
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Thanks everyone! We will (eventually) take them to a professional. It never occured to me that the signature would be the person who commissioned them.
Thanks Oceans! I agree that most paintings were done from photographs, unfortunately I can't find a similar sitting of Robert E. Lee, but I believe that it is him due to the mole in between his eyebrows.
I will keep you all informed!
;D
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here's a close up of that other sig...
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There seems to be a whole history on the back there, even Eli Smith - 21st Jan '02? plus something else that I can't make out. It all looks very contemporary and so I would feel confident that it is a 19th possibly very early 20th Century piece.
Good luck with it.
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Here's an image of a print very much like yours , marcylove ; it's from a live auction site , with an estimated value of $60 to $80 (starting bid @ $30) .
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Yes, Eli Smith was my father in law who passed away. He put is name on everything.
Thanks!
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Marcy - Do you know where he would have picked these up?
The writing on the back of the picture is different than the ones on the frame. The script on the frame appears older. Again, I'm no expert but I have seen countless example of older handwriting. In your opinion does it read Allen M (on the frame) - Maybe an initial before the Allen?
I'm intrigued by these!
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Oceans: It looks like maybe an 'F'. I don't have the paintings with me, but next time I'm at the house I'll look at them some more.
Fancypants: Thanks for the link. They are remarkably similar, but I'm pretty sure these are paintings, again, I'll double check next time I'm at the house.
:)
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Are they sitting in an empty house and are you the administrator of the estate? If so I might pull them out and take them home for safekeeping. If they are original oil on canvas and date in the 1800's they could be quite valuable (says the person who knows nothing about art ;) )
I read today that there are no known paintings of Jackson that were done in his lifetime (he d. 1863) and the oldest known portraits are hanging in the Virginia Millitary Institute and date to 1868. The script certainly looks 19th century to me (on the frame) but, peoples handwritting doesn't change just because the century did so they could be early 20th. Maybe not original frame either...
I have been searching for when the technology emerged to do prints on canvas (from a negative) but haven't had much luck.
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They are sitting at my Father-in-law's house (who passed away), and there are three children going through the house (my husband is the oldest). There is no executor, so everyone is going through everything. It's been great and fair so far... ;)
I'm a stay at home mom so I have been going through the house on my own sorting through books mostly, (he has hundreds if not thousands), and taking pictures of things that everyone thinks may or may not be valuable. My husband and I love researching things and are avid roadshow and american picker watchers.
I sent an email to the National Portrait Gallery, hopefully I'll get something back...
That's interesting about no known paintings of Jackson...again I'll take more pictures of the surface, I just don't want to remove them from the frame (they are behind glass).
I do know that there is a liquid you can paint on any surface to make it sensitive to light and print from negetive (I did it on glass once) but I don't remember what it was called...
Thanks Oceans!
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No problem... I just think they're wonderful (old or not).
Just the sort of thing I will have hanging in my completely restored historic home that I do not currently own and only dream about!! ;D
Do let us know what you find out.
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Went back to the house today and took some more pictures. Upon closer inspection I did not see any brush strokes. Hubby said "Hey there were no brushstrokes on the Mona Lisa!" Somehow i doubt Da Vinci painted these. :-X
But I took more pictures anyway, including the way the thing was put together, more closeups, the canvas and more pics of the signature on the frame.
I did get a response back from Christie's ;D and they said they forwarded the pics to an expert for review. So I should know soon enough!
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...
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You really need to take these out from under the glass to inspect the painted canvas.
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i agree...it's just a matter of getting the 'permission' from the other siblings to do so...it can be frustrating at times :(
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There is the conundrum ... Take it out from under the frame for a close inspection and you can find out a lot more, on the other hand there are a lot of buyers who like to see that the backing has not been disturbed/replaced as it helps to guarantee that the painting is contemporary with the frame, or even earlier. I have a couple of paintings hanging with the backs looking like they could have done with replacing 50 years ago. Possibly wait until you hear back from the expert?
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I would wait to hear back but agree that they probably need to be removed, cleaned and placed back in frames. If you get a professional to do it they probably "certify" that every thing is originial (from their inspection). The key here might be a third party... Or take pics every step of the way if you DIY meaning - remove from frames to inspect.
In looking yesterday I noticed something about Lee - probably minor but... There are very few photos showing him in profile looking to the right when he is in uniform. I think I have seen 2 and neither are of your painting. The one I can think of he is standing and the uniform is dark. Granted I am only looking at pics on the net. A trip to the library might prove me wrong. It would be easy to use the face of one pic and paint the uniform in I suppose (HA! I can barely draw a stick figure). Just thought it was interesting....
Thanks for posting more pics. I am so intrigued by these!
At least I know more of Jackson & Lee history now :)
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hahaha TELL me about it oceans! Next time i'm with all the children I will talk to them about it. I'll keep you all informed!
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Marcylove , concerning your original 1st post question about the age of the painting of General Lee :
I'm very uncertain of the date of origin of your painting , however -
The image depicts Lee in a CSA uniform , with the three stars 'rank' of a colonel in the Confederate Army , which he had joined on April 23rd , 1861 .
Lee was appointed one of the first 5 generals in the CSA , but he continued to wear the three stars of a colonel for the duration of his service in the Confederate Army .
He personally indended to wear the rank of General on his uniform only after the war had ended .
Regarding the questions about conservation of your item(s) , I'd suggest you locate an art conservator in your area & take it to them for assessment (this is usually free) regarding work needed on each item .
Professional conservators work with standard rates (per square inch/centimeter) for the variety of services they provide & can quote you FIRM prices for their work .
They can & will photo-document disassembly & conservation of items (for a price) , so as to be able to verify exact condition before , during & after conservation work happens (it's great to have such documentation , with valuable artwork , to 'cut-off' any 'bargain-hunting' critiques by prospective buyers) .
Quite often , but not always , unknown/unseen details (both 'good & bad') will be revealed during & after disassembly of framing elements .
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Thanks regularjoe! ood information!
:D
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Hubby brought home one of the prints last night and before I knew it took it out of the fram, stating that his father did it all the time. So instead of voiceing my opinion, I grabbed the camera. I was immeadiately hit with the fact that it was a print and not a painting.
There was no signature, and was clearly printed on woven paper attached to the underlying canvas. There were spots where someone tried to paint over, which was clearly paint and not ink. I broke out my loupe and saw a matrix instead of pure ink, but it was an irregular matrix and not dots. There are also specks of gold showing through the ink around the edes of the print.
I then found a blog:
http://antiqueprintsblog.blogspot.com/search/label/Print%20Processes
(scroll down to chromolithographs)
and
http://antiqueprintsblog.blogspot.com/search/label/Print%20makers
(scroll down to E.C. middleton)
so I am convinced that these are original chromolithographs. This process became popular around the civil war era, so that only makes sense. I'm going to email the blogger and try to get his opinion.
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more...
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I found this example of the frame in the back. It seems identical to mine...
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://photos.liveauctioneers.com/houses/myersauctions/20564/0133_3_lg.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/7037651&usg=__hsbMcQawC-yTaYa_36xr3DZKy_w=&h=668&w=600&sz=75&hl=en&start=10&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=0vx9u4PnWjx3nM:&tbnh=138&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3De.c.%2Bmiddleton%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26tbs%3Disch:1
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Very Cool!! Still reading
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Neat find.....
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ok, so i got a reply from Chris Lane from the Philadelphia Printshop, and Antiques Roadshow...This is what he said:
"I suspect these are by Middleton. Your picture of the back does not show the canvas itself. Have you looked at the back of the canvas? Even if not by Middleton, they are clearly chromolithographs and have a similar history to the Middletons.
For how we can help with values, please read what we say at www.philaprintshop. com/apprais.html"
So that is somewhat exciting news. Now it's just up to my husband and his brother and sister to decide what they want to do!
Thanks for everybody's input and suggestions on this one!
:D
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Thanks for the update Marcy, really liked the article, the thread I read before this one just asked kind of the question suited for that link. Good digging and posting marcylove.
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If you decided to have them appraise it let us know what the value was. Really interesting following along on this one.
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I still want to know who did them... E.C.Middleton had a stamp that is missing from these but the initials on the frame do show an M.
From the pics it takes some imagination to get an E and a C tho...
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yes, Mr. Lane had asked if I looked on the back of the actual painted canvas, but we do not feel comfortable trying to remove it from the stretched canvas. It looks glued or something. :-\
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This one will be interesting to watch. It the famous George & Martha pics by EC Middleton. This set is usually listed in the $700-900 range. I'll bet it doesn't get out of reserve pricing but it'll be interesting:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220687978520&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en
What's your opinion Marcy... Do you think confederate pics would go higher?
ETA: Also.. Do you think EC did these? There is a known EC Middleton of Lee and this doesn't match it. There could have been more I suppose. I wouldn't peel off the back either but hmmmm....
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I'm not sure. I know there are a TON of civil war addicts out there, so I would like to think that ours would go for alot. Especially with the unusual sitting of Robert E. Lee.
I will keep my eye on the Washington pair though. I emailed my brother and sister in law all the research I've been doing on ours, I wonder what they're going to want to do.
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I was thinking that as well.
Even if not by Middleton as a pair they would certainly go for at least what Geo & Martha sell for... and probably faster as you have a larger audience. I'm not sure if Lee is really younger in your pic as he seems to be more "hair challenged" than in other pics. He does appear "freshly trimmed" which is unusual in itself and of course the seated left thing. I have only seen him in uniform seated left in a pic while he was standing, another by Currier and Ives (with his hair parted on the wrong side I might add) and then Middleton’s version. Probably seated left so he faces Jackson.
Jackson is different too in that he is looking down. It makes me wonder if the artist bought a discarded photo from the Chancellorsville photographer. Of course now I'm just making stuff up a bit.... lol
I’m scratching my head as to whether or not this is Middleton’s work. I found a letter written to Lee by Middleton here: http://home.wlu.edu/~stanleyv/18jan66.htm
He mentions making matched portraits of Lee and Jackson. Lee replied to the letter he has no good pics of himself to which Middleton responds (actually sends someone to his house): http://home.wlu.edu/~stanleyv/07mar66.htm I copied the transcriptions at the bottom of the post.
My thinking is he probably only produced one image which I’m sure you’ve seen:
http://www.alincolnbookshop.com/html/new_acquisitions.htm#lee
You will note he is hair challenged in Middleton’s pic too (based off a Brady photo) but a
little more grown out in the back and sides than in yours…
I don’t know… Interesting stuff.
___________________ ___________________ ________
First Letter
E. C. MIDDLETON & CO.
PUBLISHERS OF NATIONAL OIL PORTRAITS.
132 West Fourth Street, Cincinnati, Jan 18th 1866
General Robert E. Lee
President of Washington College
Lexington, Va
Dear Sir
While visiting General Sherman at his residence in St. Louis a few days ago, and getting the favorable impression of himself and wife in regard to my Oil Portraits of him - He suggested the propriety of adding to my Series of Oil Portraits, designed for the parlors of the Country - The Portrait of yourself and General Stonewall Jackson which I have about concluded to do, provided I can get copies to work from that are satisfactory to the families of both - Will you be kind enough to send me such a photograph of yourself, Card Size or larger if you can, with a full description of your complexion, being as particular as possible about the color of your eyes and hair, as well as flesh tone. You will confer upon me a very great favor if you can procure for me a good copy of Genl Jackson with a similar description of his complexion.
We design to make them Match Portraits - and it is my purpose to have the South thoroughly canvassed for subscribers - My portraits are disposed of only by subscription - You can form some opinion of their merit by a perusal of the enclosed Testimonials -
Yours Respectfully
E. C. Middleton
For E. C. Middleton by Co
Notation on reverse by in General Lee's handwriting:
18 Jan66
E. C. Middleton in reference to portraits of self & Genl Jackson
Ansd 13 Feb – that I had no good photographs etc
Second Letter
Washington Mch 7th 1866
Genl. R. E. lee
Lexington Va.
Dear Sir
Allow me to introduce to you Mr. E F Lutz of Baltimore.
You will remember having received from me a few weeks ago a letter written in Cincinnati, in which I requested you to favour me with such a likeness of yourself as was satisfactory to you, and your friends, to be copied in my style of Oil Colors; to which you replied that “you had no such likeness, nor had you seen any that was satisfactory to you.”
Having learned that Mr. Brady of Washington City had succeeded in producing a very fine Photograph from a siting (sic) you gave him, a few days ago, I have visited this City for the purpose of procuring a copy of the same.
Mr Lutz, my general agent for Maryland, and Virginia, visits you for the purpose of presenting you with a few copies which I trust you and friends will endorse as correct.
I regard these copies as beautiful works of art, and if I can get the desired endorsement, I propose to proceed at once to copy the same in my style of Oil Colors.
By your permission, Mr Lutz will make a few notes of your complexion; he will also show you a sample of our style of Arts, in the portrait of Washington which is the same style, and size that we propose for your portrait.
Very Respectfully Yours
E C Middleton
Fm E C Middleton & Co
Cincinnati Ohio
Notation on reverse in General Lee’s handwriting:
7 Mar ‘66
Mr E. C. Middleton
Says Mr Lutz will Take notes of color etc
For Portrait
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All of this is very interesting and great research marcy and Oceans! I wonder if a bright light would penetrate the canvas enough to see if there is a stamp between the canvas and the backing? Or maybe a blacklight?
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Oceans, Thanks very much for the links! It is all very interesting!
Wayward, It never even occurred to me to do that! Great idea!
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just got tis reply from Christie's. I wasn't trying to sell it to them, just wanted to know what the darn things were! Oh well, that's why i have you guys!
Dear Ms. Smith,
Thank you for contacting Christie's regarding the possible sale of your
property. Our specialists have carefully reviewed the information you
kindly sent to us and have requested that I share with you their
response. Unfortunately, based on the information provided, your
property does not appear to fall into a property category or value level
that Christie's currently handles for sale. For that reason, our
specialists are not able to suggest an estimate or provide other
information.
We recognize that this may be disappointing news, and although we cannot
be of assistance at this time, we hope that we may be of service to you
in the future.
Yours faithfully,
Alexandra Miciotta
Christie's Client Service
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Shame about that, Marcy, and I am expecting a similar response about my miniature :( (although they did respond to you remarkably quickly ... I'm expecting to wait 4 - 6 weeks!)
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yea, that's what they told me too...I think it's a standard response! :-\
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The George & Martha on ebay sold for $250 plus $55 shipping (more or less). I was watching it since I think yours as a pair would go for more. Others can tell you how eBay lines up with other auctions. I would think eBay would be less but what do I know. I'm still puzzled by who did these. You don't see many (any?) portraits of political figures that that weren't done by Middleton but they all have his stamp. I'm not sure it matters tho... I think the subject matter and age is more important. They all seem to sell.
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Thanks Oceans! ;D I still have to hold a light up to them to see if I can see Middleton's printmark...
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That's the thing... Unless someone glued canvas to his canvas, I don't think it would be there. His mark is on the actual canvas not the paper in the ones I have seen. You've probably guessed by now you have me hooked his work ;D I am looking at a couple of Washington's since they seem to be available and affordable so a good place to start collecting. Plus, I enjoy early political history.
On one hand, I think these are Middleton's work by the quality and style which is almost undeniable. OTOH... I think Middleton had access to better quality pics meaning Jackson looking forward instead of down and there are definitely better pics of Lee by Brady (the photographer) whom we know Middleton knew. In fact he produced one from a Brady pic that IMO is a far better picture of Lee (no offense). But again, Middleton did write a letter to Lee stating he wanted to do a matched set but I have found none of Jackson surfacing on the net... The ones Fancy posted earlier maybe an example (?) I keep meaning to go and look.
There is precedence that Middleton produced more than one view of the same person. Probably due to popularity. There are at least 2 (probably 3) of Washington. So it’s conceivable he produced a second of Lee. There is a rumor that Middleton did a Stonewall Jackson and sold it to raise $$ for the memorial but Middleton’s pics were also sold for Lee and Washington memorials so the stories may be confused.
I've accumulated some interesting info on Middleton if you're interested - I don't want to bore anyone tho. I'm just trying to figure out if he ever did Jackson for my own newbie collector knowledge :)
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FOR THE LOVE OF.....!!!! How I have missed this before is beyond me.... (where is the bumping head on desk icon???)
Here is one that looks like your Jackson except in far worse condition. Note turned down button, curls in right places, and I think he is looking down: http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/2814930 There is no mark on the auction pic either. It sold for $150.
I reposted your pic Marcy for a quick compare. The colors seem a bit off but that could be the camera, age etc...
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Way to go Oceans! The backs of the frames look very similar also, so I would think marcy's is period to the piece.
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Seriously.... Where is that icon! LMAO... Nice history with it if true...
Fine Pair of Confederate Chromolithographs, these two 10" x 12" chromolithograph portraits came from a little antique store in the Shenandoah Valley. Early in 1864, General Robert E. Lee sat for Richmond, Virginia photographer J. Vannerson. Lee sat for this photograph for a very worthy cause -- it was to be used by sculptor Edward V. Valentine who was commissioned to sculpt a statue of the world's most famous General. The statues were to be sold to raise money for disabled Confederate Veterans. Robert E. Lee's portrait is a chromolithographed copy of the Vannerson photograph made that day. The Stonewall Jackson portrait is from Jackson's most famous photograph, taken shortly before the Chancellorsville battle at which he was mortally wounded
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1929870
Sold for $550
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Well done Oceans... You know, you're such a good delver I'm pretty sure you could make a living out of it ;D
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LOLOL... When it rains it pours. BIN price is $700 with NO FRAME!!!
He has a different history saying it came from L Hoover Publishing - which is actually J (Joseph) Hoover. I think he misread/mistyped the "J" but I've looked into the company a bit and doubt they did these for a number of reasons.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Robert-E-Lee-Original-Oval-Portrait-/300454049306?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f474f61a
And BTW, I don't think this pic of Lee is from the 1864 Vannerson photos (below) unless he got a haircut and unbuttoned his uniform in the middle of the sitting :)
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Sorry to keep spamming this thread!! ;D
Here is a Middleton with a mark on the edge of the canvas? or maybe the canvas is mounted to the wood? Either way, you may want to check closely around the frame to see if there is something there. I haven't seen this before in Middleton's work...
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5607843
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Holy Heck! Where have I been!!! Excellent work Oceans! THANK YOU! No I inspected the prints thoroughly and did not see a print like that on the edge. This has been a GREAT thread. Thanks to everyone! now I just wonder what the kids are going to do with all this information...I'm prety sure they want to sell... ;)
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FWIW I think the guy on eBay is misinformed and/or optimistic. That said, you could always list for $2K and see what happens - LOL - original frames are worth something and listing is free right now. The two that sold for $550 are not original frames and were cut to fit the frames they are in - or so it appears to me.
I think the eBay provenance is off. J Hoover's store was not on Market Street in the 1870's. The earliest I find (from my poor memory of yesterday) is Chestnut St and he was there through the 1890's. It was located on Market Street in 1934/5 and maybe before that. I can look it up if you like on my genealogy subscriptions. Whoever wrote that on the back of the eBay chromo may have purchased it from Hoovers store (??) on Market St but they didn't buy it there in the 1870's. Also, J Hoover & Son's weren't typically doing this style of chromo portraits - or at least I didn't find an example. Middleton focused on the subject. In the few portraits that Hoover produced, there was always some other scene in the background (I don't have the right words).
You will also note the writing is not very "period" to the 1870's like yours is.
I will probably never be able to prove it but I have a sneaking suspicion it was EC's son, Edward that was distributing these prints maybe with his father's help. EC left the biz by 1870 when he sold his second company and listed himself as a Real Estate Agent in a Census. However, his son Edward stayed close to printers throughout his life. Edward's FIL was a Tinner, BIL was a painter, and Edward was a pattern maker... Later in life Edward became a traveling salesman and was living in MD. He is listed as a boarder and his landlord was a Printer. Edward died in DC in 1908. I'm still working on him... LOL
Also, I found an unmarked Lincoln and am guessing I’ll find more unmarked examples eventually.
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Think I found the origin of the pic.... From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Leslie
Frank Leslie (March 29, 1821 – January 10, 1880) was an English-born American engraver, illustrator, and publisher....Frank Leslie's Illustrated Newspaper, which included news as well as fiction, survived until 1922......Illustrat ions made by Leslie and his artists on the battlefield during the American Civil War are well-regarded for their historical value. He was commissioner to the Paris Exhibition of 1867 and received a prize there for his artistic services.
This engraving appeared in a book published in 1893 however, it probably appeared in his Newpaper during the war...
Publication: Frank Leslie's "The Soldier in Our Civil War" (a Pictorial History of the Conflict, Illustrating the Valor of the Soldier as Displayed on the Battle Field)
http://frankleslie.com/soldierv2/leefrontis.jpg