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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: mariok54 on October 24, 2010, 01:00:59 PM
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Hello All.. I know that this is a long shot, as it's already been to the experts and valuers in the local auction houses, but I bought this little miniature some time ago. It is a copy of a very famous painting, on porcelain and in oil. It is probably mid 19th century, and most probably has always been in the same frame, which I know more about because Alphonse Giroux was a very famous maker of cameras, brass pieces and such like.
It is a great shame that the frame is slightly damaged, but there we are.
I'm afraid that I've photographed it against a £1 coin, which might be meaningless to many of you, but it's bigger than a cent. I personally believe that this is a painting of fairly good quality, but the valuations vary by over 100%. However, the actual price isn't so important, what I'd like to try to find out is 'who was the artist'? ... S/he was obviously a very accomplished artist, in my opinion, and the frame must have been very expensive at the time (Giroux was not cheap) ... so who was s/he?????
Any ideas as to where to go? (other than local auction houses) :)
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Have to go now but can't wait to look later...
What is the time span that Giroux was making frames?
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Hi Oceans.. You can imagine that I've probably spent a few hours Googling, but, as yet, never come across a frame made by Giroux.... everything else but! (well, not quite everything ... never seen a Giroux keyboard or chocolate biscuit) :)
ps In perfect condition, the frame might be worth more than the painting!!!! ::)
Whoever s/he was ... s/he may not have been absolutely adept at painting babies, but s/he sure could capture the beauty of motherhood, possibly more so than Raphael did in his original.
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contact bonhams or christies art dept
http://www.bonhams.com/eur/valtax/
http://www.christies.com/services/selling-services.aspx?CID=5447010030901
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Hi Gingertom,
Thanks for the post ... I've never used a big Auction House like them before as I always assumed that they may be a little pricey? The lowest estimate that I got for the painting + Frame was £200 - £300, and if they're right then might going to Bonhams or Christies be eating into a big chunk of the value? Any advice would be most welcome.
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Starting with Giroux frames.....
http://www.rubylane.com/item/135488-910frmpr/Antique-Champleve-Enamel-Picture-Frame
http://www.rubylane.com/item/594272-MT304/Nineteenth-Century-signed-Giroux78-French
If you note, in the second description they mention Giroux being a painter first, then a merchant ... possibility??
Short biography....
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphonse_Giroux&ei=DZrETNHZGov9nAe7_f34CQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CDYQ7gEwBw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dalphonse%2Bgiroux%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26prmd%3Divo
His son Andre....
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphonse_Giroux&ei=DZrETNHZGov9nAe7_f34CQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CDYQ7gEwBw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dalphonse%2Bgiroux%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26prmd%3Divo
Though not your painting, this article has some very interesting points.
http://forum.findartinfo.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6098
Another article on the Giroux family's involvement in the arts....
http://urbanchateau.com/library/articles/giroux
Will keep checking around ;)
Edited to get the links in the right spots! :D
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Another tidbit.....
http://books.google.com/books?id=ExiJFPrNrKkC&pg=PA209&lpg=PA209&dq=alphonse+giroux+painting&source=bl&ots=mWoQwqKBdP&sig=AjNLkGZ5TEYBIc3aqFNyhx6XwlE&hl=en&ei=V53ETPHkIIiRnwf2wajvCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CD8Q6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=alphonse%20giroux%20painting&f=false
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Hi Sapphire,
Many thanks for that.. it's amazing that you've actually managed to come up with not one, but three Giroux frames, when I didn't even manage one!!! As I suspected, it is possibly quite valuable in its own right, so I think I did really quite well when I bought it. I'm not interested in selling, but it is good to know... and also thanks for the other links, but I have a feeling that the artist will remain forever Anon ... How did/do they manage to paint such beautiful paintings on such small 'canvasses'?
I have seen quite a few other miniatures of the 'Madonna della seggiola' but a lot are very crudely painted and never one as 'cute' as this one.
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Another frame by Giroux. This one states pre ban ivory. I don't have a membership on this site so cannot access the selling price.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/french-bronze-frame-alphonse-giroux-pre-ban
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This will help out!!!!!
Francis Simon Alphonse Giroux, cabinetmaker and official restorer of Notre Dame, “Maison Alphonse Giroux” also known as “Giroux & Cie” specialized in producing ornate objects d’art and technically sophisticated furniture. Patronized by various members of the French Royal Family, including Louis XVIII, Charles X, Henri V, and Napoleon III, the design house was particularly known for fine ormolu, japanning/lacquer work and exquisite furniture.
The business was taken over by his eldest son, Alphonse Gustave Giroux in 1838. Under his guidance and innovative planning, the business grew to become one of the first and most prestigious department stores in Paris, while continuing to take important commissions for custom work. Pieces made for the department store were marked “Maison Giroux,” while Alphonse Gustave Giroux signed commissioned pieces himself, as in the case of this assiette signed “Mon. Alph - Giroux Paris.”
Alphonse Giroux was fascinated with mechanics and new technology. Alphonse Gustave received a silver medal at the 1839 Exposition des l’Industrie Francaise and produced pieces for the World Exposition of 1855. Some of his most unusual known creations are: a mechanical clock-work horse and carriage for the crown prince, an automaton of a violin player seated on a barrel and a lavishly detailed lifelike doll wearing a regal gown and crown of antique fabrics with seed pearls, presented at the 1867 Paris Universal Exposition to represent the glorious legacy of French Royalty.
Of additional historical significance was Maison Giroux’s role in producing the first commercial camera under the direction of Mr. Daguerreotype, which forever changed visual history and revolutionized the art world.
The first practical photographic process, Daguerreotypes, aptly called a “mirror with a memory,” definitively changed the way humans perceive the visual world.
The first daguerreotypes were mirrored images, but nonetheless depicted reality with astounding accuracy – unattainable by earlier techniques. Paintings, engravings, drawings, and sculpture could emulate reality but were always filtered through a human lens. For the first time it was possible to capture an objective, scientific image.
http://urbanchateau.com/library/articles/giroux (http://urbanchateau.com/library/articles/giroux)
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Early photgraphic inventors seemed to kinda like the idea of incorporating their names with suffixes such as "-type" &/or the prefix "calo-" .
The fellows' name that was mentioned in KCs' post was really Louis J.M. Daguerre .
Cool little item , mariok54 .
I'm curious to know if any of the framing elements (besides nails & etc.) happen to be attracted to a magnet ?
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Not alot to add but it is interesting that Sapphires link http://forum.findartinfo.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6098 is regarding another Mary, Jesus and John the Baptist painting housed in a Giroux frame. One person commented how they saw the influence of Rapheal and your picture is reproducing one of his.
Another interesting similarity from reading Sapphires links... Alphonse Giroux studied painting under Jacques-Louis David before going a different direction. Another of David's students Jean Auguste Dominique Ingres painted the 'Madonna della seggiola' in the background of at least 3 of his paintings: Henri IV playing with his children, Raphael and La Fornarina and Nepolean on His Throne (Left border of carpet - I don't see it but it's there - lol)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HenriIVenfants.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IngresRaffaelAndFor narina.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ingres,_Napoleon_on_his_Imperial_throne.jpg
Info on David
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques-Louis_David
Info on Ingres
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingres
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I guess what I was really trying to say is that I believe it is from their store.
They sold many different items from different artists.....
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Many thanks to Oceans, KC and Sapphire !!!!! (beginning to sound like an Oscar speech) ... although a good slice of this morning seems to have just vanished following all those links! :)
Wouldn't it be nice if the painting were by Ingres, or even Giroux himself, but although fairly accomplished I don't think the quality is there for Ingres :(
Hi Regularjoe thanks, and in response, no, there is no attraction at all to a magnet
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Hi all... I carefully dismantled the thing, (and put it back together in one piece!) looking for a signature or some sort of identification. Unfortunately nothing but the number 65 on the back of the porcelain plate.
But a few more photos for you Hawkeyes out there :)
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Mariok54 beautiful and I think sending your photos to Bonhams or Christies art dept is a good idea if it does hold considerable value they will contact you with info on your piece and an auction estimate but at no time are you at any obligation to sell.
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Hi Wendy,
That could be good advice from you and Gingertom. Having taken a look at their websites it seems that they will give advice on pieces that are in keeping with items that they normally handle in their auctions .. so what is there to lose? ;)
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Wouldn't that be nice if it were Ingres :o
I tend to agree with KC that it was sold in the store but David was teaching in the style of Rapheal. Giroux's son Andre also studied under David (different style from what I can tell) but there must have been an ongoing relationship with the studio/school. David's students may have been supplying the store with art. A list of the known students of David can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pupils_of_Jacques-Louis_David
It makes for a good story anyway and I love a good story!!
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Hi Oceans ... Wouldn't it just!! :)
You've all unearthed some interesting and intriguing detail .. and it sets the imagination wondering off in all directions!
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Well... I've e-mailed Christies, but not over confident that they'll look at it, even if they do it's a 4 - 6 week wait ::)
I'll keep you informed
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I think the artwork stands alone by itself as a quality painting. A signature would add $$$ to the value but how many painters of that era produced such quality as that painting in a miniature form? Absolutely beautiful.
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Totally agree with wayward's comments. Not unusual to have unsigned paintings on miniature!
Let us know when you hear back!
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Ho hum,
Just got the Dear John e-mail from Christie's ...
Thank you for contacting Christie's regarding the possible sale of your property. Our specialists have carefully reviewed the information you kindly sent to us and have requested that I share with you their response. Unfortunately, based on the information provided, your property does not appear to fall into a property category or value level that Christie's currently handles for sale. For that reason, our specialists are not able to suggest an estimate or provide other information.
Seems it's not quite in their price range ... whatever that may be ???
Back to the drawing board
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I have not dealt with Christies for quite awhile (for selling) , but they used to refuse items with a value of $1k ; later on it went up to $2k .
I'm not sure what $ level it's at today/these days .
Large auction houses used to 'consign' artworks & often in their agreements they'd have the option of doing conservation/restoration/reframing to the item , in order to make it more presentable for their sales .
Options for the sellers ( & the auction houses ) used to include such services as a variety of sizes (& prices) of photos included in their auction brochures/catalogs .
In consideration of the costs incurred , especially for items that do not get sold & are sometimes abandoned by the owners , higher limits needed to be in place IMO .
If the potential for profit margins is low , most large auction houses just 'pass' on so-called 'low value' items .
I still say that you've got a cool little painting , mariok54 !
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Apparently they weren't buying my theory that it came from Jacques-Louis David's studio and was perhaps an early work Ingres... ;D
They'll be sorry when your descendants sell it for MILLIONS one day.
First Stonewall and Lee and now this....
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I love your optimism Oceans!!! ;D
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:)