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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: KC on November 03, 2010, 01:27:03 PM
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This is a beautiful reticulated silver item that I believe most people do not know what it is....but I feel there will be a couple on the forum that will know!
These were made small and large. This one is only 3 1/2" in height and ranges from $800 to $1000 in value!!!!!!
Gander to guess?(http://photos1.liveauctioneers.com/houses/llauctions/17627/0165_1_th.jpg)
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This is a total guess on my part, but it looks like an old boutineer, used to hold a flower on to a person's clothes front.
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I think it's a Tussy Mussy ...?
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KC, why does your picture not enlarge? mario, I had to look up what a "tussy mussy" is and I agree with your assessment. :)
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Thanks, Wayward.. Impossible to say for certain from the pic, but I'm pretty sure that's what it is.
These became popular in Georgian and Victorian times, when sanitation was not, perhaps, as good as it is today. Whereas the men kept their little silver vinaigrettes in their pockets, women would hold sweet smelling posies, sometimes of herbs, to their delicate noses to ward off the stench given off by the masses. I imagine taht it became fashionable to go for more and more expensive and intricate little containers to hold them in ... certainly beats aluminium foil! :)
You could even be right, Tales, but maybe this could be a little too large.
Here's a nice example of what you mean
http://www.bexfield.co.uk/04/f298.htm
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Tussy Mussy/Mussy Tussy !
Just finished up doing wedding flowers for a coworker.......used them ('modern' version) for the bouquets. ;)
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"AN ORIGINAL RETICULATED STERLING TUSSY MUSSY IN CUSTOM DOMED BOX: Beautiful rose and thistle motif, unmarked, assayed sterling, please note repair patch, in original hinged custom storage box with leather covered exterior. Please note wear to leather, satin and velvet interior, 6 1/4" x 2 3/4"."
Price realized - $600
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Looks just like Hercule Poirot's boutonniere holder, in the PBS series!
But if they come larger, then I agree with tussy mussy. They are still used (in cheap plastic disposable form) in wedding bouquets today.
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Ya'll are tooooo smart!
It is a Tussy Mussy!!!! This one.... is located at:
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5934101 (http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5934101)
Whenever I find something that is unusual/not your norm I will post it.....so that way if you ever run across one (a victorian sterling silver one like this) grab it!!!!!
Glad to see that you are a mighty refined group!!!!!
(http://www.glitter-text.net/graphics/commpliments/images/compliment66.gif)
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Dang .... came in late on this one .
Had I not , I might have said :
"I do declaih , I believe someone has mussed my tussy !" ,
(as a retort to the 'mighty refined' comment) .
;D
I'm with KC on the grabbin' one if ya see it remark !
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...and I just learned what a tussy mussy was!
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I hadn't heard the term tussie-mussie before and so I went looking for some more info- I'm curious if ladies would carry these and use them like a vinaigrette to mask the smells of the city, if they were used primarily as we do now for weddings, or if a lady would grow the flowers in her garden and carry them in the mussy-tussy when she went for a stroll, almost like a fasion accessory? Does anyone know? Also what purpose do the ring on the chain and the pin serve? I saw that some of these are designed to fit into a vase when not being carried, but I am not sure if the ring/chain/pin are for something else?
Definitely a high-dollar item on Ebay. It looks like most auctions are spelling it with an "ie" rather than a "y".
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I'm curious if ladies would carry these and use them like a vinaigrette to mask the smells of the city, if they were used primarily as we do now for weddings
Hi Tales, I'm probably guilty of letting my imagination run riot, and making unsupported statements (something I'm always telling my students not to do!!)... I know that women also used vinaigrettes, and there are some very fine, feminine specimens around that realise good prices, but for some reason I have this memory of reading somewhere that this is what they were used for. So I may be wrong. Re the spelling of Tussy Mussy, to be honest it was only a guess as it had been such a long time since I'd last read about them, but it seems that it is one of the possible spellings... although I can't find a single reference to any variation of the spelling in my Funk and Wagnells or my 1880s Ogilvies' ... at which point I gave up.
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Hi All,
Found this which might explain why I can't find any references in my old dictionaries
http://www.word-detective.com/0806B.html
It's somewhat surprising that "tussy-mussy" is around at all today. The term faded from use in the early 18th century, and was only revived in the 20th (the Oxford English Dictionary contains no citations between 1706 and 1958). The Victorians may have indeed been brandishing "tussy-mussies" on festive occasions, but it seems that they must have been calling them something else.
and there is this piece, but how reliable it is, I wouldn't like to guess..
http://www.ehow.com/how_2143831_victorian-tussy-mussy.html
Modern times have narrowed this idea to refer to the small bouquet held by a bridesmaid. In Victorian times, the Tussy Mussy was a far more common accessory, keeping at bay the scents of human bodies who were not in tune with daily bathing, and sewer systems which were not in tune with modern drainage and hygiene. Given the common use of the Tussy Mussy, they were often given as gifts, with each herb and flower conveying a specific meaning. The process of creating a Victorian Tussy Mussy is a simple one.
Read more: How to Create a Victorian Tussy Mussy | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_2143831_victorian-tussy-mussy.html#ixzz14IHGgSoY
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From what I have found over time...this sums it up very well....
A bit of history "The language of flowers spans the world of the ancients from Greece and Turkey to the Aztecs of South and Central America.In England during Elizabethan times, judges carried tussie-mussies into their courtrooms to protect against "gaol fever." Today judges at England's highest court, the Old Bailey, celebrate this tradition by carrying a tussie-mussie into court six times a year. During the Victorian era tussie-mussies were carried close to the nose to ward off the stench in the streets and the plague and were composed primarily of scented herbs such as rosemary, thyme, and rue. The age-old custom of strewing pungent herbs on the floors of homes was thought to protect the gentlefolk from germs and provide herbal fragrances - early aromatherapy. The Victorians also turned flower giving into an art. It was common practice at the beginning of a courtship for suitors to give their intended a tussie-musssie. Floriography, the art of sending messages by flowers, brought a new dimension to tussie-mussies. Dozens of floral dictionaries were published listing the meanings of each flower and herb. The symbolic meanings were adapted from classical mythology, religious symbolism, ancient lore, and a bit of creativity on the part of the floral designer. The study of botany and the discovery of new plants from all over the world brought new and exciting ideas to this language of flowers."
And more that I don't care to write/post....http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-tus1.htm (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-tus1.htm)
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Hi Tales,
I think that the purpose of the ring is to go over a finger, for security, pretty much like many of the little purses would have one so that the lady could slip it over their finger when they were dancing, but again only a guess :)
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Thanks for the additional info! That is what I suspected that they were used to hide unwelcome scents. (I have one of those old vinaigrettes and it got me to thinking about how tussie-mussies were used.) I wonder if there is anything to connect them to the old belief that posies could ward off the plague as well?
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Hi Tales,
Again, I'm only drawing from long distant memories of faded literature, but I'm pretty sure that for a while it was believed that they would do just that ...
Not so silly when compared to some modern-day beliefs ... 'Berlusconi is a good Prime Minister...' ;D ;D ;D
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As an addition to the 'stinky-ness factor' , I'll add the fact that many Victorian homes were planted with Tea Roses (often under windows that could be opened) , carnations & (one of my favorites) English Wallflowers .
A short 100 - 110 years ago , the majority of homes in the U.S. had outhouses which would really become extra pungent in the warm seasons .
Those fortunate enough to have indoor plumbing often had neighbors who did not .
My Grandmother had a tussy mussy which she would bring with her to social functions of her day (dances , tea parties & such) , and told me that many ladies in her social circle began using them (again) during the 'Spanish flu' epidemic of the early 1900's .
She used tea roses , rosemary , carnations , wallflowers , lavender & honeysuckle in hers (according to her) , as I recall .
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i actually dabbled in aromatherapy in college. I have several necklaces that serve the same purpose, to alleviate headaches, stuffy noses and bad smells. I wore them for a while, but essential oils can get expensive...
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One thing to keep in mind on outhouses of the day, they were not quite as bad as the outhouses we know and love at today's ;)large outdoor events. Not only were there far less people using them one after the other, but also back in the day a bag of lime and a cup to sprinkle some down the hole helped to make it so that it wasn't as "intense" as what we have to use at our local art and wine festivals.
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All this outhouse talk reminds me of a letter we found among FIL's papers (dated August 28 1892), which I just transcribed for the family:
Dear Mollie
I have had ahard time since last I wrote to you I lost my teeth and had to have some more put up and I had some pluging dun in my outhoss, I was in washing and they fell out of my mouth and sunk to the bottom of the [s?]uck, I never could fine them any more, it cost me about twenty dollars to get the work dun. ...
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:D
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OMG, who would wear them after that even if they found them? :-X
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Nice story , CC !
I think the questioned/obscure letter near the end of the translation might be an 'm' , unlike the first letter I thought of .....
:D ;D :D
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That's awesome!!!
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Love this thread! Not only is it educational/historical...but has it's humor! Bottom line....we are very spoiled with our luxuries today....and we don't even realize they are luxuries until we reminisce or travel to area/countries that don't have them....
I know that on old homesites....the area where the outhouses have some of the best "preserved" items of the past that were thrown out!
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When we bought this house (20 years ago now!!) there was an old outhouse halfway down the garden (it must have been a nightmare in the winter!!!!!). It wasn't in very good condition and had been used as a tool shed for a number of years. I decided to take it down as it caught the first rays of the morning sun and I thought 'what a great place' to have breakfast. It was brick built with a slate roof ... so I propped the ladder up against it, started easing off the slates, and next thing I knew was the whole thing was collapsing ::) ... What I thought was going to be a whole morning's job took about 30 seconds :)
The most interesting thing was that when I was clearing up the rubble (Nothing ever ends up on a skip, everything gets recycled and used for something else) ... the floor was tiled with thick old red and blue quarry tiles which I had planned to clean up and relay elsewhere....Beneat h the old quarry tiles was a floor of old Victorian Minton Tiles, in beautiful condition (once cleaned up). I sold these at Auction and made just over £300 (c $450) which actually paid for a lovely old garden table and bench, just right for breakfast ;D
Amazing how this has evolved from something small, beautiful and silver ... to ... something not small, beautiful and silver!!! It's a bit like a dinner party conversation after a few bottles have been emptied!
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Great story Mario54
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I could make the worst joke about something being "built like a brick *$@& house", but I shall refrain... LOL. :o
Here in the USA I have only seen them made out of wood, never brick and tile! That's really cool! You might want to excavate that site someday. A lot of times interesting artifacts are excavated from very old outhouse sites. People used to throw all kinds of things down there- bottles, jars, toys etc.
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Almost forgot to say, please do post a photo of how your garden turned out! :)
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Hi Tales,
I think a wooden outhouse in this part of Derbyshire, in winter, would have been akin to Euthanasia !! All the old @*#* houses (you seem much too refined to know jokes like that) were brick built, and slate was relatively cheap here in Victorian days.
This structure was just meant for those personal moments ... However, there was quite a largish area at the very bottom of the garden that was concreted over, with the remains of an angle iron frame .. the shed that had once stood there had burnt down. When I broke up the concrete and started to turn over the ground I discovered that that was where they had dumped all their rubbish. I found a few nice bottles, jars old crock, clay pipes .. (I'll possibly post a photo of them on Oceans 'interesting finds' thread). That is where the girls now live (hens)
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Can't wait to see....and post a pic of the girls!!!!
(http://www.animationplayhouse.com/smachick.gif)
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Yes please do!
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That is a neat piece!!
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Nice story , CC !
I think the questioned/obscure letter near the end of the translation might be an 'm' , unlike the first letter I thought of .....
:D ;D :D
I'm having a hard time with that first letter. There are no other characters in the letter that look the same way. His starting "s"es don't look like this one, nor his starting "m"s. Here's a pic of a few of the words around it -- maybe someone can give me a hand!
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af285/HowTownGirl/BonetoMolliefragment.jpg)
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Creek? ???
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Agree... Creek. He was washing in the creek when his teeth fell out.
BTW let me be the first to say... WHEW!!! lol
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There's only one "R" in the sample -- let me take a look at the rest of the letter and see if it could be "creek"! Well, that certainly changes the humor of the letter, though!
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It looks similar to the 'r' in 'any more' and the 'c' in 'cost' ..The second 'e' looks like one, the first not so distinct, but neither is the 'e' in 'they'.
I'd hate to be right this time, as the original story was much more fun!!
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Much more fun but disgusting! At least I would look for my teeth in a creek and wear them again but not from the original thought of source. ;D
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And by popular demand, some of the girls!
You can't do anything in the garden without having half a dozen around your feet. If you lift a spadeful of earth there's bound to be a chicken standing on it!! ... Open up the compost bin and before you can blink you have four feathery bottoms sticking out of it ;D
OK, this thread has covered Tussy Mussies, lost false teeth, Outhouses and now chickens' bottoms .. where can it possibly go next?
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Ahhhh!! So cute - I love those bottoms!
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Yep, upon further examination of other "R"s, I do believe it's "creek". Too bad!
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If your handwriting is as bad as mine, you get pretty good at deciphering other people's :)
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Ohhhhhhhhhhhh....lo ve the pics of the girls!!!! Makes me miss my grandparent's farm! Thank you so much for sharing!!!!
Glad the teeth fell in the creek....but with the cost of things and the little bit of money one had in the past......I imagine quite a few things fell in the lou and were retrieved!!!
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A semi-associated with the topic(s) link :
http://komar.cs.stthomas.edu/qm425/01s/Tollefsrud3.htm
Thanks for the happy hens pix, mario54!
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Hi Sara,
Thanks for that link ...Everything you wanted to know about toilet paper and more. Years ago I worked in the Civil Service and the Governments preferred choice of toilet paper was that stuff that children could also use for tracing paper (Izal was a brand that I recall over here) ... perhaps it was intended as some sort of disincentive. And the funniest thing was , possibly just in case any public servant was inclined to steal a roll for their personal use at home, every single sheet was stamped 'Government Property' !! I wonder how much a roll of that would fetch on Ebay today?
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I bet there are quite a few folks that would love to get their hands on a couple of rolls.....especiall y being marked government property! LOL