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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: mariok54 on December 19, 2010, 12:35:54 PM
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Hello all, A while back I bought this for my wife (a last minute auction bid) thinking she'd like it. The seller said that it had belonged to her grandmother and that she'd seen it at her grandmother's for years. As it turned out my wife wasn't impressed by it, so it's been on the top of the bookcase ever since.
It turned up again today and I thought that I'd sell it on, but as I couldn't use my grandmother as provenance I thought I'd research it ... but can't seem to find anything at all like it.
Anybody ever seen a bamboo handbag/purse like this before? Measures c 9" x 4" x 5"
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I am not seeing bamboo, mario. It looks Indonesian to me. Not real familiar with purses.
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http://www.fashion-era.com/index.htm
Maybe this website could help you.
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Found another. Yours appears to have it's original handle. Not really a lot of confirmable info though.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350422038115#ht_10732wt_1139
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Wow Sapphire and many thanks!!!!V HOW DID YOU FIND THAT SO QUICKLY????? I Googled everything I could think of.
$429 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) I can't believe that... it seems such silly money, especially as I don't think that I paid even $45 for it. If that is its realisable price then it wasn't such a silly buy after all..... but looking at their 'shop' some of their items seem to be quite pricey ... but I#ll be watching this to see what it goes for.
You are right about the handle, and the handle is one of the cleverest things about it, it's almost like a simple puzzle box, you have to flip a portion of it back in order to to be able to draw the 'bolt' (dowling) back to lift the lid ... I wonder if they're aware of it?
Thanks, Greenacres, for that site ... it's a fantastic site and it would fascinate my wife, but after 1/2 an hour I was beginning to lose the will to live ;)
I agree Wayward, it doesn't look much like bamboo, but I think that was down to my photography, and the flash ...
I wonder if my wife will now be a little less unimpressed? :D
Thanks all
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If $429 made your eyes bulge, this one should knock your socks off !! :D
http://www.jcollector.com/Japanese-Bamboo-Carved-Purse-Edo-p/ji97326.htm
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I thought by the shape of this I had found yet another, but it turns out to be a snuff bottle (don't try to look at tiny pictures when your eyes are half open ;) ). Sold for a pretty penny.
http://www.eldreds.com/sales/detail.php?itemID=129580
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I'm just trying to figure out what is making all those sellers so confident that these pieces are all 120-200 years old. Seems a bit hard to tell the age of them and it seems like they would be easily and frequently reproduced. Not trying to be rude, I'm just confused and inexperienced. ???
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Hi sapphire ... Side on you'd be forgiven for thinking it the same ! But a nice bottle. Some of the early snuff bottles can fetch a fortune. A few years back my wife and I were at an antiques centre and we picked up this item, marked up at c. £25, and put it back down again as neither of us liked it. A few months later we saw an almost identical one going for £150 + :o
You're not being 'rude' Hosman, just wise ... Question everything is my motto.. and isn't that a raison d'etre for this forum? ;)
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Have to agree with you there hosman. There's very little that I can find on them.......other than trying different terms/descriptions in searches they aren't something that pops up too much. If they are correct and these were a common or even slightly common accessory then one would think there would be more to be found.
Unless of course there is an actual 'name' for them that I haven't hit on.........but usually descriptive words bring enough hits if they're out there.
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Seeing basically the same thing listed from $429 to $2495 makes you scratch your head and wonder......do either of these people really know what they have and if so who is right and where did they get their knowledge?
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I don't know how I missed your other message, Sapphire, just seen it!!!! .... $2,495.00 !!!!! Do you think they could sell it at that price????? At least, if they are early 19c Japanese, then I know where to possibly start looking to find out more about these.
Ours does have a slight crack on the end node which I think has just been as a result of it drying out.
Would you believe it, we actually were thinking of using it as a small plant trough !
I think maybe more homework is needed, and I agree with all your comments, so I'm not going to get too excited just yet :)
Thanks again Sapphire.
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Wow! Learn something new everyday. I looked at the online examples that sapphire gave and you can tell those are bamboo. It appears the purse is made from one section of bamboo with the nodes and walls intact forming the ends. I do not know what species this is as bamboo culms for rod building are large if they are 3-3 1/2" in diameter and this is 5"? Bamboo is a member of the grass family and is not actually wood. Very hard and very sharp. The cracks that appear naturally occur as bamboo dries. For rod making, the culms are split on one side to hasten the drying and to control where the culm cracks. If the one is worth $2495 then the eBay seller's example should have been snapped up as a BIN at $429. I suspect these are not highly sought after except maybe in Japan or there are very few collectors of them?
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We certainly do, Wayward, and on this occasion we have Sapphire to thank again.
I've actually e-mailed the antique shop asking them why they think their piece is of the late Edo period (I wonder if they'll respond, and if they do what they'll say?)
I'm certainly with you all on feeling cautious about the price (I just checked and I paid £21, so roughly $30, just this January), and I was beginning to wonder whether it was even worth that... I bought it because it seemed so unusual and I believed my wife would like it ... wrong again ::)
It is possible that the collectors aren't drawn to the one on ebay as the handle is missing (it does look odd with the piece of dowling stuck through it).
If it is an early Japanese piece then a couple of years ago it might have been snapped up by a buyer from over there, but they're suffering as much as we are now :(
We'll see what happens.
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Most items like this style...are chinese.
Like this brush pot/holder
(http://www.aaauctions.com/auctions/catalogs/10o28/10o28-073.jpg)
(http://www.websters-online-dictionary.com/clipart.asp?q=Bamboo&w=c)
In fact, I wonder if this is where your purse/tote came from....just transformed
LOOK AT THIS PIC GOOGLE: http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=iDT&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&biw=1440&bih=785&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=antique+carved+bamboo+brush&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= (http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=iDT&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&biw=1440&bih=785&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=antique+carved+bamboo+brush&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=)
Still have current day ones but are not ornate
http://www.denisederose.com/Handbagsgallery.html (http://www.denisederose.com/Handbagsgallery.html)
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Hi KC,
That's really pretty much in the same style ... nice research!
Not sure when you say ... In fact, I wonder if this is where your purse/tote came from....just transformed if you mean that it started life as a brush pot ... I think that it's probably always been a purse/bag.
On that Google pics link you gave I scrolled down and found a nice site Tang Antiques, so just popped them an e-mail with photos and asked them... never know, they may reply ;)
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The mechanism to attach/remove the handle is the same as on my wooden Chinese tea buckets. I have a collection of five and the handles all attach the same way, with a swing-out section that allows the handle to be removed, and then latches it securely into place and enables it to support quite a bit of weight. My understanding is that these are about 80 to 100 years old. I'll post some photos later.
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That's an interesting observation Tales .. another hint that it may be Chinese
I'm beginning to feel like a bit of a philistine now calling it 'tat' ::)
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I'll admit when you said "tat" I was thinking of tattoos before opening the thread. I was a bit worried we were going to find out more info than we need to know about you Mario...
altho I was intrigued how you wouldn't know the date of a tattoo...
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Apologies Oceans ... ;D ;D ;D
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It's been giving me a 1920's-1940's vibe ever since I first looked at it. Possibly a tourist item? It does have age and doesn't look brand new to me. I don't know, that's just my idea. :P
I thought the same thing about tattoos! What does tat mean on your side of the pond?
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hehehe - no prob Mario. Nothing against tattoos mind you, I was just worried you woke up with one and didn't know if it was new or from a prior "fun evening".... :o :o
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Here's a photo of one of the Chinese "tea buckets" from my collection of five. These were used to keep a traditional, straight-sided Chinese teapot warm. The spout would stick out through the hole in the front and the bucket could be carried out into the fields or wherever you wished. The handle has the same swing-out peg design as on Mariok's bamboo purse.
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Lovely tea buckets Tales, and I'd never even seen one before ... and the 'lock' certainly is the same.
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I wrote:
Ref: Japanese Bamboo Carved Purse, Edo - JI97326
Good Morning,
I hope that you don't mind me asking, but I am curious as to how you can be sure that this item is late Edo period. I have been trying to research it and have come across one other very similar piece which is incomplete (replacement handle) but not described as Japanese.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350422038115#ht_10840wt_1026
Other than that piece I cannot find any other reference to bamboo Japanese purses of that era.
Kindest Regards
They replied:
Thanks for your inquiry. Unfortunately, we can no longer offer information and/or appraisal services, or we'd be so overwhelmed we'd have to give up our retail business! However, we suggest you try the following links:
http://www.appraisalday.com
http://www.eppraisals.com
You might also consider contacting by phone any of the three licensed appraisal firms listed below:
Butterfield's
Christie's
Sotheby's
Jcollector Staff
www.Jcollector.com
I've since responded with:
Good Morning,
I am sorry if there was a slight misunderstanding, but I was not asking for an appraisal, only trying to establish the provenance of the bamboo bag that you have for sale.
Kindest Regards
Let's see what they say
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With the energy it took them to write that detailed response, they could have just told you about their item. It's called courtesy. You didn't ask for an appraisal or specific details about yours, you just asked about theirs. Geeeeze people these days.
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I know, Hosman, .. courtesy seems to be a thing of the past with so many people.
You will note that I deliberately didn't mention that I had a similar one, otherwise I'd have expected short shrift ;) which is what I received anyway ::)
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Next time, I wouldn't mention another one at all. I'd just act like I was interested in theirs. Ask how they determined the item was from the period, if the item has any provenance and if they guarantee it is original. Then they will think you want theirs. ;)
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Mariok very difficult to sell a piece of that price without proof of it being what they say it is. I would guess they have no proof. I have searched several of my antique purse books and have found nothing recorded of a piece like yours, This could be good or bad ;) I think I have a few more books to dig out & will take a peek later today.
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Hi Wendy... I agree with you there, but if they have no proof then they certainly have nerve! ;)
and what did Hosman say earlier on?
I'm just trying to figure out what is making all those sellers so confident that these pieces are all 120-200 years old. Seems a bit hard to tell the age of them and it seems like they would be easily and frequently reproduced. Not trying to be rude, I'm just confused and inexperienced.
Maybe some of these sellers are also inexperienced and confused ;D
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Hi Hosman... sorry but I didn't see your earlier post ... Tat means 'rubbish' something of 'poor quality' .. and so on.
And I also seem to have missed your comment Oceans (does this happen to others, where posts just seem to appear, or is it age-related?)... If I awoke with a tattoo that would have been a pretty heavy evening!! ;D
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Unfortunately, since there aren't any monitors or provenance nazis, you can list something just on a hunch or from what someone told you (whether it is right or wrong). I can understand how naive sellers on ebay and other various sites do this and many correct their history when advised. However, when a store or high number seller does this - it is telling me that the almighty dollar is what counts.
I gotta' admit I looked up the word tat in several languages to find out what you meant. I am still confused..... Never heard a purse called a tat. (Can you explain?) I first thought of a "tatted" (needlework) item came to mind when I first read your heading and then quickly when to tattoo as well! LOL
When I put "In fact, I wonder if this is where your purse/tote came from....just transformed" I was meaning that the artisans might have been commissioned to take this style of well and convert into a "purse, tote, handbag, pocketbook, carryall". I even wondered it it was originally for carrying paintbrushes for the artisan!
The only other purses I have seen made of bamboo were from the 1930's to 1940's and they were "plain jane". Simply the Giant Bamboo was cut 1/3 to 2/3 with the 1/3 being hinged to make a lid. (I say that with respect because I don't think I could simply cut a piece to convert without some acquired skill.)
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Hi KC.. As usual some good points. And apologies to all for the confusing use of 'tat' :D
As I mentioned to Hosman above it means rubbish, of poor quality etc. Although, I must admit, although it was a common expression when I was a lad it's not used that much nowadays .. it's one of those words that will probably disappear from use before long.
I called it 'tat' because when I first showed it to my wife she just didn't take to it, and I was wondering whether it was worth the $30 I paid for it.
In fact, I Googled 'Old Tat' to see what you might have come up with and ...
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Better than the one I came up with.....hehe
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQc9Je5fqFjquDpkJUlVTZiruGvKpKpB6yqYneoANCkpe8PjNts)
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Mariok, take a look at these newer ones
http://www.denisederose.com/Handbagsgallery.html]]http://www.denisederose.com/Handbagsgallery.html (http://)
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Hi KC .. the link seems to not work :(
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Better than the one I came up with.....hehe
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQc9Je5fqFjquDpkJUlVTZiruGvKpKpB6yqYneoANCkpe8PjNts)
Mine is certainly prettier ;D
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Well, Tang Antiques responded ... Bless them
Dear Mario,
First thank you for visiting our website.
In Chinese antiques I never seen such item, it could be from south east asia. This still looks older like end of 19th to early 20 th century.
I'm sorry but I do not know much more of it.
Best regards,
Jean-Luc
http://www.tangantiques.com/
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mariok54, I corrected it. Sorry I hit the image button instead of the link button!
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Hi KC,
Just managed to get that link, once I'd realised it had been pasted twice !! ;D ;D
My good lady, having seen me playing with it, has decided (without me mentioning that it might be worth a few bob) that she probably quite likes it and thinks it'll make a nice trinket box ;D ;D ;D.
So I've showed her the two links that you guys found and she's more than impressed. Even if it's worth only half the lowest then it was still a brilliant find.
All's well that ends well ;)
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Hi Wayward ... You seem to know your woods, and a bit about Bamboo as well (but open to anyone out there also). Over Christmas I showed the box to my neighbour who is extremely good at making things out of wood. He seemed to think that the crack was probably down to age and central heating. He's offered to have a go at it to glue the crack to prevent it from splitting further. Would bamboo, in your opinion, take the sort of pressure required to close that gap?
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Bamboo is a member of the grass family. It does take pressure and glue BUT after it is dried out like it is, it would need to be heated to be pliable. Planed bamboo strips are heated over a flame from an alcohol lamp until they are just pliable and then straightened. Too much heat and bamboo will scorch. I do not think clamping this purse (like you would clamp wood) while the bamboo has dried out will correct the split but may actually cause another split somewhere. I would leave it alone. Trying to clamp the split together may cause more harm than good.
You have things going on with bamboo that does not go on with wood. Bamboo has a hard enamel outer layer, an inner pithy layer, nodes (raised outside ridge) , and the inner walls where the nodes are.
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Hi Wayward,
Many thanks for that advice, and pretty sound it seems. I had a feeling that its properties weren't the same as 'wood', but couldn't find anything out there on repairing bamboo.
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Mariok Here is a site that talks about Bamboo and humidity , how it cracks & how to prevent cracking, Maybe it will help on how to care for your piece going forward & I am with Wayward on this do not glue & clamp. http://www.navaching.com/shaku/crack.html
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Thanks for that Wendy ... I never would have thought of looking there!! ::) ::) ::)