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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: seeyouthere on January 05, 2011, 05:06:23 PM
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We inherited this strange knife years ago from a friend. The story he gave us was that it was a sacrificial knife and very very old. We have no clue how he got it though and no clue if his story is true or not. It certainly is interesting looking. I have attached a photo but I am no computer genius so I hope the photo is the right size and stuff. We have tried to find any information by looking online but haven't come up with anything helpful at all. There is no place near us that we could take it to anyone who might be of some help near us either that we know of, unfortunately.
We would really appreciate any help that anyone might be able to toss our way and would especially appreciate anyone who really knew anything really great about it!!
Thank you in advance for looking and trying.
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I think what you have is a "kris dagger". Here's a page of basic info, see the photo on the right side for one with a blade similar to yours.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris)
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I like your knife. It's very cool.
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I do not think it is a kris. Texas badger should know what it is. I will go and see if I can find it in my knife book but it is lacking for much info on foreign knives.
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Yes, I had already seen that photo from wiki but it just didn't seem similar enough to me to be the same type.
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Came across some pics of bishwa daggers that have a similar form . Many have a loop style handle, the one below is
more in line with yours as are some others I came across.
http://www.oriental-arms.ru/item.php?id=4495
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Hmmm, that is certainly interesting looking and closer than others I have looked at.
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Hmmmm, seeyouthere, this was posted with a pic by Don R on this page in April 2008...http://www.specialistauctions.com/valuation.php?page=posts&topic_id=2260
Hada wrote..."This piece is NOT an Omani Khanjar / dagger at all. It has nothing to do with Middle Eastern weaponary. This piece is Mongolian. The hand is most likely copper or brass. The blade is called Jowhar, or watered steel. There should be wavy trails of the metal on the blade making it very hard indeed. The blade is quite sharp and is used not for animal sacrifice, for goats and shep. This is used for the killing of humans. The shape of the blade is indicative of this as it's put at the front of the neck. Sorry for the gruesome details but that is exactly what it is. I am not able to establish it's age but it would be commensurate with the period in which ritual kiling of humans through tribal raids was common."
This is 2 1/2 yrs later then the original post. Did you not believe what Hada said or have you been unable to find more info?
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The shape and style remind me very much of the Indian Sub Continent. It could be a ceremonial dagger.
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2082
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Khanjar, dagger
Southern India, 16th century
The khanjar is of Marathi origin from southern India. It has a double-curved, double-edged blade, and the top of the handle ends with an animal head.
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Wayward, I am so sorry. We have done a lot of traveling since that origional post and I had totally forgotten that my brother did that post back then. I never even saw that one reply. If that sounds like the correct information to you folks I will try to continue my research into it from there. I want to find out if it has any value at all, potential for selling if it is worth it.
Thank you for the information.
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Sounds like an interesting story, here is a site I use to research blades that come to me at the shows.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/ (http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/)
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Hello again,
I am trying to find out more info on the possibility of this knife being Mongolian or even prior to when they were named "Mongolian". Reason being is that I can find no sources at all that tell of human sacrifice by the Mongols. Founds tons about their brutality during raids and etc but nothing at all about human sacrifice by them. So I tried to look even earlier than when their name officially became "Mongols" and cannot find any info referring to them doing human sacrifice those earlier tribes either. Anyone have any clues or know where I can find info that shows they actually did do human sacrifices to help to verify this knife might be from the Mongolian empire?
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What is often posted online is not necessarily true and needs to be further researched to determine facts. I am not so sure what Hada posted about it being Mongolian is true. I just skimmed the history of Mongolia on wikipedia and found nothing. It also stated it came under rule by Tibetan Buddhists when this knife would date to and Buddhists did not condone animal sacrifices, killing, or human sacrifices so I find it hard to believe this knife is Mongolian. It is likely from India where Hindus ritually practiced animal sacrifices. I would think by the shape of the blade and the animal head on the handle that this is a khanjar from India. Khanjar blades are double edged and it is hard to tell if your knife has been sharpened on both edges at one time. With the animal head on the handle, I would think this knife was used in animal sacrifices and not human. You would need an expert collector of foreign knives to really tell you what you have.
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Another example of a khanjar........
http://www.antiques-arms.com/catalog/sold-antique-18th-century-indian-mughal-dagger-khanjar-p-2149.html
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Our blade doesn't look as if it has ever been sharpened, at least if so, not in a very long time. Only the last three inches at the tip of the knife make it look like it is a double edged knife at all. The rest is all only sharp to the top basically on one side. Does this make it a dagger amd not a knife, or does it make it qualify as being called both, and would that qualify it as a khanjar dagger possibility?
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Seeyou, in that last link I posted I noticed another term.....mughal. If you google images using that you will also see similar daggers. For example.......
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Wow, the shape of the blade on that Mughal looks very very similar in general. It seems narrower and there are other differences but this is the first blade that has the correct shape to it that I have seen. I am going to start looking into that one.
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Texasbadger's reference includes a thread discussion of different types of peshkabz here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=977
Your blade looks very similar to #12 and #32
#32 Peshkabz, Indo-Afghan, Punjab or maybe Afghan.
#12 Peshkabz, Indo-Afghan, Bhawalpur, Sind. See Egerton, plate XIV, #717.
I have pasted your knife image alongside the image of peshkabz from the vikingsword discussion. Peshkabz blades have a T spine which yours appears to have. Their use was to pierce mail during battle which may be why only the 3" tip is double edged.
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I tell you what...this is all so confusing to me. Wayward, the peshkabz you show does also seem to be so similar to ours. There seems to be so darned many possibilities as to what our knife might be. We are not knife collectors by any means and that makes it even harder since we just plain do not have any knife knowledge background. Heck, we are fishermen basically. That is probably why we like your forum name so much (the angler thing). But that is off the subject. I going to check into the peshkabz thing now and see what I can find on that one.
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Nice little knife , seeyouthere .
I'm curious to know if the fuller (blood groove @ the 'back' of the blade) is on both sides of the blade ?
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Hi Fancy-yes there is the same groove on the other side of the blade. So that is a fuller-a blood groove?
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Yup , seeyouthere .
The fuller is used on a variety of knives , esp with those that involve inflicting stabbing wounds .
Among other purposes , the fuller tends to allow the wielder to withdraw the knife from a deep stab , via letting air into the wound & the vaccum created by withdrawing the blade .
The pommel (derived from the Latin , "little apple") on your blade could have been used to whack somebody , and is designed to help balance your knife .... the other purpose of the pommel on your knife is to help prevent the slippage 'from the hand' , when slippery blood/body fluids accumulate on such a knife when in combat .
Sorry about the gory description .
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Fancy- Very interesting. The gory details don't really bother me so don't worry. Thanks for the info.
And thanks to Wanderer and everyone else for all the various pieces of info so far. I am loving finding out any possibilities about this knife/dagger.
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That is the purpose of the "T" spine on your knife. Makes the knife stiff and does not flex when piercing mail (armor). If you sliced the blade and showed a cross section, it would resemble a "T".
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Sorry Wayward, I got your name wrong. I meant to say thank you to you especially also. And to Sapphire.
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Sometimes I do wander, hence the moniker wayward. ;D
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I think there are several possibilities. Perhaps the materials and a close up of the ornamentation of the handle will help narrow it down. The S shape daggar is very appealing to many!
I do agree that it bears a great resemblance to even this Indian Khanjar whose origins were from the middle east.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TzHPIcYqPuc/TM8XrSBoAOI/AAAAAAAANWo/93Q0vmLGg8U/s320/indian+curved+khanjar.jpg)
At the same time....unless it is handled by a person in the know...beware. There are so many expert knife makers out there....
Look at this currently made Merlin daggar
(http://getasword.com/562-966-thickbox/merlin-the-magician-dagger.jpg)
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KC-We are planning on taking a couple of close up shots this weekend. Which areas of the knife/dagger would be most benificial for people to see? And bear in mind that you would have to use laymans terms since we are not knife people.
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Hi Seeyouthere ... have you done n internet search of local Auction Houses that have a resident expert on either weaponry or Eastern/Indian artefacts? We haver maybe five auction houses within a 50 mile radius but only a couple actually employ specialist valuers, and oly one has a specialist militaria valuer... but they all provide free pre auction valuations and could probably help with identifying most objects (within reason).
Good Luck with it!
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Mariok-No, I haven't tried the auction houses yet. I will see if there are any within a reasonable distance that sound like they might be able to tell me anything and/or give me a value. Thank you for the suggestion.
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Rats. I just checked online and of course there is no auction houses in this area at all for some reason.
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You could see if you can find any with an in-house specialist and then e-mail them together with a couple of good quality photos, saying that you are interested in selling. They won't be able to tell from your e-mail where you live. If it turns out to be at all valuable then you'd probably want to sell it through an Auction House that runs specialist auctions.
I've never ever not had a reply from a local Auction House with some info and a guide price. Whereas, I haven't been too lucky with places like Sotherby's .. as became apparent on a thread a while back.
Good luck!
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You can find the style of your daggar/knife all over the middle east...
variations of the Mugal Jambia Daggars, kirpans, etc.
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Finally got the pics done so here they are. Does this help anyone to have any more information at all? Once again, I want to thank everyone for all their help.