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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: Baulde on January 24, 2011, 05:37:39 PM
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My old man and mom seem to collect all manner of items. And usually mah dear old Pa. Is pretty sharp on identifying items others cannot. But he purchased a box of items at the auction for a few things he wanted and this was included in the box. I have asked around and nobody I have talked to seems to have even a clue what it "could be"
If anyone can shed some light on this it would be appreciated. Ill describe it as best I can.
Pictures are included.
It is a brass bell shape with an "insert". The very top brass "ring" with the knurling unscrews. There is a tube the drops to the bottom of the bell. It is heavy and full of a black powder. very little of this powder will come out if shaken. Almost as if there are two small holes at the bottom of the tube in the middle. The tube will not pull out. but can spin and wiggle a little bit when the top "washer" is taken off. When the top ring is screwed back on it stops said tube from moving as the ring screws right onto the tube.
The "insert" has a nut on the bottom that can be removed. Its almost as if something was supposed to be screwed into this insert and then placed into this bell.
On the bottom it has "Peerage" "Made In England" stamped onto the bottom.
I'm really curious as to what this could be.
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If it is full of "a black powder" I would assume that you have got a black powder measure as in gun powder and great care should be taken when handling it as it can easily ignite. I would assume you've got gun powder and treat it as such until it can be correctly identified.
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Does the bell shaped piece attach to the longer piece at the top? Its hard to tell as it is in the pic. Actually the bottom one as it is shown looks like a handle for a beer keg. Like in a pub for draft beer. I looked up Peerage, Made in England and found that it seems to be a town that was known for their brass items. But didn`t see anything like your item.
You said it had a black powder,, maybe for a gun !!
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Here you can date it approximately by the Peerage maker's mark. Look like this is post-1945:
http://www.oldcopper.org/peerage.htm (http://www.oldcopper.org/peerage.htm)
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I would be amazed if it was black powder and my dad did not recognize it. He is the go to guy for identifying old rifles. He gets calls from the gun club to teach reloading, identifying firearms, even down to the minute details if everything is 100% original etc...
So if it is black powder or related in anyway to firearms it would blow my mind he was unable to identify it.
The part in the bottom photo is in the first photo. It is inserted into the top of the bell. You can see the two parts together in the first photo, but you can only see the very end of the nub thing. It goes in the hole in the bell and sits on the bottom of the object.
*Edit* The long part that "inserts" into the bell simply slides into the tube that is in the bell. It will fall out if you were to turn it upside down. There is no guarantee this is even originally with the bell or someone just stuck it in there.
If it is somehow related to firearms I would like to see his face explaining that to him.... Something related to firearms that he "missed".
Ill have to take some measurements but I estimate its only about six inches tall.
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I would think he would have recognized the powder then, but I would still handle it carefully until you know for sure what it is. I'm trying to think what else that powder could be- Maybe a spice of some sort? Seems strange for post-1945.
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Well if its gunpowder,, that would be easy to find out. Just sprinkle a tiny bit on a nonflammable surface and put a match to it. It will sparkle as in the sparklers you get at a fireworks stand. If its only six inches long it probably wouldn`t hold much black powder. Spices were a bit expensive, does it smell?? Does it feel extra fine like graphite maybe !! OK I am running out of ideas for black powder.
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Cool little puzzler , Baulde .
Perhaps the 'black powder' you've mentioned is a clay &/or ceramic compound , intended to weight the base of your item ....
I'd guess that this item was intended as one that would dispense dry powders (talc , soap) , perhaps even in a barber shop .... seems like it may have a missing part (or two?) from the central stem , though .
Thanks for posting it !
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It does not resemble any black powder measure I have ever seen. Black powder comes in the form of granules and not powder. There are different sizes of granules based on the type of powder...fg, ffg, fffg, etc. The granules resemble black pepper coming from a grinder...rather coarse.
I must be missing something or the explanation and pictures are not clear. Can I see the brass parts unscrewed from each other and lined up next to each other? What does that first pic have to do with the 3rd pic? Maybe I am not thinking straight tonight but I do not get it.
I have no idea what size this is but it looks like a finial to a lamp to me.
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The 3rd pic has the brass item that is inserted into the top of the brass object.
The item in the 3rd pic is seen in the first picture only most of it is inside the bell object.
Ill take more photos of this tomorrow when I am at my parents place. Ill take it apart to its pieces and measure it see what this crowd makes of it then.
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Peerage Brass Successor to Pearson Page brand name c1946 onwards and generally used for original designs but also on reproductions. Trade Mark registered to Pearson Page Jewsbury, Dulverton Road, Witton, Birmingham 6. Peerage Brass were later at Sharston Road, Wythenshaw, Manchester M22 4TH. but are possibly not trading. Trade mark may have lapsed in 1991.
This 'Peerage' mark has 'Made in Ireland' added underneath. It is found on souvenirs with emblems attached that are designed for the Irish market.
Looks like part of a candlestick http://www.oldcopper.org/pearson_page_candlesticks.htm as Peerage did make candlesticks.
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Any chance this could have been a pencil sharpener ?........only other reason for 'black powder' I could think of ::)
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Maybe the "black powder" is dried up ink?
That almost hasta be a "desk top" item.
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You may be right Cogar, he did say that it looked like something attached to the third item, bottom and that it just dropped down into the bell shaped piece. Perhaps a personal stamp for letters? At six in. approx. that would be about the right size for a desktop item.
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Hi Baulde ... Any chance, as suggested by Wayward, of some pics of the whole thing dismantled, as much as it can be? Also a full shot of the base?
This is driving me insane!
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Mario, it took me a while to figure it out too. The rounded piece, bottom pic shows what you see in the bell shaped item at the very top. If you just drop it into the bell it rests on the grooves just below the rounded piece at the top. The nut shaped piece is the bottom. that is what might have an attachment of some sort. So if you look at it all together the portion below the grooves is inside the bell. While this is clear to me it may not be to others. Sorry !!
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OK, so I get it now. That bell shaped brass bottom is open and that other brass tube with the hex nut on the end is hanging in there?
I would like to see some size comparisons with something next to it so I can see the scale. Maybe a shot of it with a ruler. I would also like to see the two holes that are mentioned and the whole thing taken apart with pics of all the pieces.
I am also thinking maybe it is part of a candle snuffer. I think the brass nut is removed, the threaded end dropped through the hole, and the nut is threaded back on. The only part missing is the handle. I would like to know the diameter of the bell, the length of the bell, and whether or not the brass tube could be threaded on as I mentioned.
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Wayward it is only open at the top and the other piece just drops in and rests there. He said that it would wiggle if you moved the piece so it is just hanging loose and resting on the groove that you see below the round piece.
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Confusion abounds here! :D
I get the bit about the brass tube fitting into the centre of the bell, and the nut sitting at the bottom (for some reason), but Baulde mentions a washer, now does that mean what possibly looks like the collar, and so does that come away?
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Here is how I think he described it.
And I think the tube will pull out if it is forced a wee bit. Probably "crud" dried on the outside of it.
OOPs, forgot - if the "washer" and the "knurled ring" are not the same thing the the "washer" will be between the top of the "tube" and the "knurled ring".
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cogar is almost right on.
Ill get more photos today. Only that "washer"(collar and knurled ring are all the same item) screws onto the top of the bell. The bell is sealed on the bottom. It is only a brass shape. It is flat on the bottom with the peerage stamp.
The washer screws onto a tube that goes from the top of the bell to the bottom. The tube can spin in the bell.
The tube has threads right on the top of it.
The tube will not seem to pull out.
The washer screws down on this tube quite tight and it becomes very fixed in position and then the tube and washer then refuse to move or turn.
The washer/collar does not hold the tube in. The washer/collar screws on this tube(which can spin/turn when the collar is not screwed down) and the tube pulls up into the collar and then everything is "tight" the tube inside will not seem to pull out even with the force of the collar screwed onto it and trying to pull it out.
The extra "handle" type item is inserted into the top of the bell in the center of the washer that is screwed onto the top of the tube that will not come out of the bell. The handle item fits inside the tube that will not come out.
The nut on the end of the handle item sits on the bottom of the base of the brass bell when inserted.
Ill get more photos tonight as see if I cannot remove some of the confusion
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Can you take a pic of the bottom and show it please?
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rough sketch of what I now think it looks like...
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Why am I now thinking this is some type of oil reservoir or for some other liquid? Maybe what is missing is a short brush that screwed into the nut end? I don't know. Nothing makes much sense.
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I tried a rough diagram.
*edit*
I would not say it actually "Seals" against the tube at the top. there is a small space. So its not air tight. And that tube can be turned with your fingers when the "ring/washer/collar" is not screwed down.
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So then the tube tightens on to the collar and the collar tightens on to the bell ? The collar has to be loose before the tube will move ? And the tube has to be unscrewed from the collar to take it out completely?
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mart, the tube does not come out. The turned brass cylinder with the nut end fits down inside the tube that stays in the bell. That is how I understand it.
Baulde, I would like a pic of the bell without the knurled ring, the turned brass cylinder without the nut on it, measurements of everything, any mineral deposits noted on the inside of the bell or in the barrel of the turned brass cylinder, any smell noted inside the bell, or anything else you can think of. Does the bell hold water without leaking? I see it is made in two parts and not cast in one piece. How deep is the bell and how long is the turned brass cylinder? How do you know there are two slots on the tube at the bottom if it does not come out?
Another conundrum, I believe.
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•1947 British Industries Fair Advert for "Peerage". Brassware at its best. Manufacturers of "Peerage" Brassware in Furnishing, Reproduction, Gift and souvenir Groups. heath and Fireplace Equipment, Electrical Fittings, Pewterware, period Cabinet Brassfoundry, Home Safes for Savings Banks and Building Societies. Brassfoundry, Presswork, Spinning. http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/wiki/Pearson-Page_Co
Any clues from what they made?
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Google searches on Peerage turned up a lot of decorative items and a lot of desk bells for me. All what I would call "light-duty" items, not industrial items. Basically household and small business items.
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Some more pictures.
The center handle part that inserts does not go all the way into the bottom of the object. it actually rests on the tiny lip. The tube inside has a bottom that is about 1/2 and inch above the bottom of the object. Not sure what is holding it in.
The poweder was not black as I remember it. It is more of a red-ish brown. It is non flamable, does not desolve in water. And does not come out of the "tube" in the center with the threads on it. It falls out around the edges of the tube right where the threads are. I cannot tell if the entire object is filled with this.
I can look down into the tube and there are two spots that look like they open up into the object but nothing comes out of them. I have not tried filling it with water as I do not know what effect this would have, and do not want to fill it with water just to test things out. Although I believe it would be able to hold the water and not leak.
The handle that inserts as you can see has a small nut that can be removed right on the end.
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more pictures
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I can see clearly now, the mystery is gone,
I can see all obstacles in my way
Gone are the dark shrouds that had me blind
It's gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Shiny brassy day.
Hmmmm, is the handle hollow and is there a hole in the nut or is that just a solid end nut that threads on? Straighten out a paper clip and see if the openings you see in the tube are actually openings into the bell body void. Curious minds want to know. The reddish stuff reminds me of red rouge used in polishing brass. Is that what it is?
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Photo with the nut. There is a hole in the middle of it as if it was meant for something to be inserted into the "handle" and then held in with said nut.
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The "handle" appears to be three parts...a top piece with the round knob, the middle, and the threaded insert.
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Nope only two parts. Tried taking it apart right there but it looks solid. That tiny lip is where that handle rests on the inner tube.
I took a video of myself disassembling it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM7ej0NODvI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM7ej0NODvI)
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Great video! The bell is much larger than I thought.
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Could that powder be the powdered remains of an old gasket? Great idea to do a video.
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Could that powder be the powdered remains of an old gasket?
Seriously doubt it. It feels like there is a significant amount in the object. As if it was to add weight. If it is not part of its function. I can shake a large amount of it around.
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I can see clearly now, the mystery is gone,
I can see all obstacles in my way
Gone are the dark shrouds that had me blind
It's gonna be a bright (bright), bright (bright)
Shiny brassy day.
Hmmmm, is the handle hollow and is there a hole in the nut or is that just a solid end nut that threads on? Straighten out a paper clip and see if the openings you see in the tube are actually openings into the bell body void. Curious minds want to know. The reddish stuff reminds me of red rouge used in polishing brass. Is that what it is?
Ill have to try the wire trick later, I am no longer at the parents place. There is a space in the handle at the back of the nut. It threads in but it is probably 1/4 deeper then the end of the nut.
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I am now starting to believe the bell base is part of an alcohol lamp/burner and the brass insert has nothing to do with it. I have no idea what the crud inside is or is from.
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I am now starting to believe the bell base is part of an alcohol lamp/burner and the brass insert has nothing to do with it. I have no idea what the crud inside is or is from.
would be quite the coincidence that the "handle" is not part of it Since its almost the perfect length to be inserted. And the "lip" on the handle is a perfect fit to stop it on the top of the inner tube. And prevents it from inserting any further. with a bit of a gap under it.... perhaps for whatever gets inserted into that nut ?
To "pick up" something that is stored in the main object ?
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I agree, but what does the 'handle' do? In its' present form, it serves no purpose other than fits good. The handle fits...that is all it does. It does not hold anything because it falls out if turned upside down. I am playing the devil's advocate here because we do not know, and you said this yourself, if the two go together. If the tube has openings to the large bell space, and the tube does not come out (unscrew at all?), then the bell must hold a liquid IMO. If the tube screws out, giving access to the larger bell opening, then the bell could hold a powder IMO. What the powder is in there now is a good question. Does it smell like anything? Is it really fine like dust? If nothing comes out the tube just only around the tube edge and bell lip, then I would have to believe the tube has no openings to the larger bell space. It is a closed wall tube. And if that is the case, then nothing about this object makes sense.
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I think the handle may hold something that gets dipped into the object and then removed for "work" ?
The bottom of the tube has what appears to be openings for whatever liquid or powder to enter said tube. Might just be plugged up. Or empty, and the powder is for weight.
I have tried unscrewing this tube but it only spins around in circles and does not tighten or loosen off. There was no disconcernable smell from the powder. Its not super fine, more like sand only all redish.
The powder only comes out from around the tube when the top washer is removed. Ill have to try poking around in the bottom of the tube.
Wonder if an xray would show the inside of it.... but I don't have any kind of access to an xray :P
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Can`t X-ray metal,, it will only look solid and give an outline,,,unless they have come a long way since I did them. MRI or CT scan,, maybe but I doubt that would help much. I wonder if the tube had a small brush attached and the powder is jewelers rouge ? There could have been a container that the bell sat in and the holes allowed the rouge to escape in small amounts then applied with the brush.
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Ooops,, thought you said the holes were in the bottom of the bell. Had to go back and read again,,they are in the tube and the bell is just a container? Still ,, I have thought and thats all I can come up with !
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Baulde, take the knurled ring-nut off and then unscrew the tube out of the bell.
Unscrew it the same way you took the ring-nut off.
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Baulde, even with some substance in it, does the bell still make a 'chime' when struck?
And...you did say there are two holes at the bottom of that fixed tube structure, right?
Is it possible a piece or two that fit in there are missing and you have desk/shopkeepers bell?
Here's a German one, who's description sure 'rings a bell'
http://www.etsy.com/listing/47100489/antique-german-shopkeepers-bell-vintage
"weighted brass base-- sounds like fine sand...
the bell turns on the center post to change the tone.... very nice little piece---
ivory chopstick included"
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I do not think it is a desk bell. Those are open on the bottom and have a dinger that hits the side of the bell at the bottom. That is not the case here. I agree with cogar that the center tube must be able to come out. If not by unscrewing then by some other lock mechanism such as two pins fitting into slots (like the old style car taillight bulbs) that must be pushed down and turned and then lifted up. That center tube does have to come out because it was put in there. I would shine a bright small beam down the tube and see what is up.
Grasping at straws...an inkwell? A quill pen holder or just a pen holder? Maybe the nib is what is missing?
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After much pondering I am still leaning toward the quill pen holder as well. Bass desk accessories were very much an appealing item. Most items around from this time period were for tools/kitchen and accessory.
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If you check out the pics in the link I posted, the German bell is also enclosed. It is rung by striking the outside.
But it's the only one I've found so far that is similar.
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Yes, but the silver part of the bell is separated from the darker base. That separation, which can be regulated by turning the center post, is what allows the sound to ring and carry. If it was not separated, it would be a dull sound. Try it out by holding any bell slightly above a tabletop and ding it with a spoon. Now set the bell down on the table and ding it. BIG difference.
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Gotcha! ;) I see it now!
Should never try to figure something out with 4 hrs sleep :D
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Baulde,,Take a bit of the red powder and mix with just a tiny bit of water and see what happens. Put it on something, piece of paper even, and see if it stains it. If it does,, your item may be a container for Red Henna . Commonly used in India to decorate the skin,, it may have had an applicator tip screwed into the bottom of the tube which would have been removed to clean after application and the tube replaced. I have looked at everything I can think of and thats the best I can think of that would fit the item.
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mart, why would an English firm make such an Indian object when India makes inordinate amounts of brass objects? The theory sounds good but the making it for henna sounds flawed.
I believe Baulde stated the red stuff does not dissolve in water. Reply #29 The poweder was not black as I remember it. It is more of a red-ish brown. It is non flamable, does not desolve in water.
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Guess I should have re-read everything before posting,, Just drives me nuts to wonder about something. Went through red powders till I was seeing red !! Most of those were spices that were common.
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Correct the powder did not dissolve in water. Did not discolor anything either. I tried mixing it pretty good as well. If it was a pen holder it would make for a very heavy pen. That brass "handle" is uncomfortable to hold like a pen.... but it is possible. It looks like the tube was put in and then the base was sealed onto the bell. Would explain how it got into the object.
It does not ring any any way. Unless a "thud" is a ring. The powder is VERY plentiful inside hard to tell how much though.
Xrays I believe can penetrate brass, should be able to make something out when comparing brass to brass in an xray. Where as the xray vs a person will not be as powerful.
I have tried to unscrew the tube with the knurled ring off. But it just spins forever and does not tighten or loosen in any way.
???
*edit*
I was thinking, if this was a quill pen holder... would they really be making them AFTER 1945 ? Since that is the date range for that peerage stamp...
Still strange, wonder if I will ever know for SURE what this thing is.
Ill try to go back and edit the first post with modified information when I have some extra time to sit down in the next day or two
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They still make quill pen holders today.
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I looked through everything I could find with the same mark yours has. Even ones in the UK and nothing even remotely resembles your item. All I found were the typical decorative items that you see everywhere. Thats the reason I started looking at the powder types. One was an opiate, jewelers rouge like I said on page 3, henna and the red oxide powder that is used in polishing leaded and stained glass almost everything else was a spice . Not much on this item is giving a clue. I am assuming that whatever it is, it was made for a specific purpose and use. What that is ?? I have no idea !! I give up !!
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What if what we are looking at is not all there? That brass "handle" still looks like a finial to me. Maybe there is something missing between that finial and that brass base. Peerage made candle holders. Maybe something like my crude drawing with the dotted part missing. Just wondering...
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Way back when they used ground graphite for writing puposes as well....it was called plumbago (like the flower).
When you take the handle apart does it appear it has any wear on it other than the piece it is currently attached to?
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Wayward, you must have seen the same google image that I did, and now I can't bring that one back up for the life of me. It was an old cached one.
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Actually, Tales, I didn't. Just the musings of a perplexed mind. I did see an image of a single offset candle holder but it was so small and I couldn't enlarge it. It did get me thinking.
I had two instances yesterday when viewing images in Google, that my virus software caught immediately and disposed of, that launched a downloader very similar to the one I experienced when I clicked on saigaupan's first image that I flagged. I do have the name quarantined...azefv ecom, a downloader mislead application. Very high risk item. Just make sure you have your firewall on and your virus software up-to-date. Nasty stuff out there.
Details http://us.norton.com/theme.jsp?themeid=mislead
Misleading applications intentionally misrepresent the security status of a computer. Misleading applications attempt to convince the user that he or she must remove potentially malware or security risks (usually nonexistent or fake) from the computer. The application will hold the user hostage by refusing to allow him or her to remove or fix the phantom problems until the “required” software is purchased and installed. Misleading applications often look convincing—the programs may look like legitimate security programs and often have corresponding websites with user testimonials, lists of features, etc.
Misleading applications, sometimes called rogue software or rogue anti-virus, trick consumers into believing a problem exists on their system. Consumers who trust the messages are tricked into purchasing bogus applications for resolution of the problems they have been duped into believing exist. Misleading applications scam consumers out of money, faking the existence of problems and failing to deliver the protection they promise. They also create a privacy risk as the victim must provide their credit card information to the scammers in order to register the misleading application and solve the supposed problems.
The victims of misleading applications have paid for software that does not work, handed their personal information to scammers, and are left with a false sense of security that leads them to potentially greater risks from more aggressive threats. Even if a person catches on to the ruse and does not pay the misleading application vendor, the programs can be notoriously difficult to remove without the proper security software.
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As a tangent: Hubby and I both had the virus pop-up last fall. We both ended up flatting our laptops b/c of it. The pop-up just kept appearing even when we rebooted - which seemed to make it worse. I have some friends at Microsoft and they were having similar problems at the time. They said it didn't harm data but the virus took control of your PC and eventually you couldn't do anything but click on their pop-up. For me, this happened after several reboots. Since then I have run into the same type of situation and I immediately turn off my wireless connection and perform a hard boot. I don't want windows saving ANYTHING prior to shut down. So far I've been OK but I don't think these later versions have been as destructive. I run MS Security Essentials (free) and Norton.
I would recommend you do a back-up to an external storage device ASAP. This one doesn't sound as bad but if it's making the rounds again you want to be safe.
ETA: I had to laugh when they caused the problem then offered to sell me the solution (as if..) AND give them my CC#. Who falls for that?? Kinda like giving your burglar the key to your front door if he promises never to come back!!
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Good suggestion, Oceans. I run an automatic backup once a week to an external drive. My Norton picked this app up immediately and disposed of it. I also have blocked ALL pop-ups and have had to manually OK pop ups for this site and some others. Enlarging pics is a pop up.
I also run a disk cleaner to get rid of all the temp files in the cache because the IE tools just doesn't seem to clean them all out.
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That's why I changed to a Mac years ago. No more viruses. I do have parallels (a PC built into it as well) but find the longer I use this the less I ever have a need for the PC side).