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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: hosman321 on February 03, 2011, 06:03:46 AM
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Ok guys, I'm eyeballing the heck out of this mirror and really want it. But is it newer than they state? Is it so cheap because of the repairs? I don't mind the repairs at that price. I have been searching and searching online and the eagle and the back of it do look just like the ones from the late 1700's but I just don't know. They have been making this style pretty much continuously for the past 200 years. Ideas?
http://cgi.ebay.com/c-1775-Chippendale-style-Walnut-MIRROR-w-EAGLE-above-/370476233854?pt=Antiques_Decorative_Arts&hash=item56421ab47e
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My big concern would be how would it get from Pennsylvania to Washington in one piece for only $12.95?
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Wayward - That was my thought too. I went to the postage calc and if you add a few inches to the dimensions with a weight of 5# you're OK but it seems really cheap and 5# is not a lot of weight for old glass.
My concern is about the molding. Those who look at 18th century stuff would know more than I but simple cove molding around the mirror doesn't look right for such a highly decorative period as Chippendale. Nor do I recall seeing plain cove molding very often (ever?) - even on a picture frame. I think it's old (by the darkness of the mirror) but 18th century is a good question...
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Nothing about it looks right to me. Most all the Chippendale mirrors that I have seen were done in mahogany. Cant remember seeing anything in walnut,, ever. Eagle is not right, shape is not right. My opinion is that it is a later repro just using a similar style. I would not buy it as original.
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Thank you guys! That's why it is so cheap, nobody was buying it. Probably one of the 1890s ones because it does look pretty old. Thanks for saving me the hassle.
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I thought about that time period. 1890 to 1910 Lots of walnut was used then.
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Ok, these guys seem really professional and I already wrote them about a shipping quote. They said it would be here within 5 days via airport. I think I'm going to get it. Maybe...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120612436526&ssPageName=ADME:X:eRTM:GB:1123#ht_5556wt_947
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Actually, I did my currency converter wrong. I did euros. May not get that one. :P
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LOL - I was just about to post that it's pounds not dollars... lol
If you want a Pembroke Table they come up at the Seattle Auction from time to time. I can keep an eye out and let you know.
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oceans, I'm into anything pre-1800. In our area though, I'm sure furniture like that will go for more than I can afford. But maybe I'm wrong. :)
Ok, last item to ask about. I promise! I'm not so worried about the price because if it is that old, it's worth that much money to me. Besides, they'd let me pay half now and half later.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300518007099&ssPageName=ADME:X:RTQ:US:1123
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I would ask for a photo of the museum reciept, even if they block out the price and there is no provenance. Just so that they can produce something tangible that this actually was a museum deaccession piece. Once when I bought a piece of copper from the hull of the HMS Victory it was helpful just to get a copy of the receipt because the guy had purchased large pieces and made smaller ones in frames out of it. Same when I bought a ring from a shipwreck that had been part of a larger lot of shipwreck items, I could at least see that they were really part of the sale, even though there was no solid provenance.
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I was thinking the same thing tales, I planned on asking for it too. And on the receipt it would have to say that it was pre-1700. Not just that they bought an old chair with an unknown date. They bought several pieces at that sale though, so I'd have to see what the receipt looks like...
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This was their response when I asked if they could send a scan of the receipt from the museum. Not sure what they mean?
Hi, the receipt is all on individual tickets. Not sure what good that would do. I bought several items from the sale. 3 early chairs, the 18thc iron items, early cabinet, tiles and early porcelain with some etchings that will be posted soon. Oh, one fabulous log cabin quilt with silk. etc. This is the chair I almost decided to keep myself of the 3.
Let me know. best, K
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I think my response would be as follows:
OK great, does that mean that yes, you will email me or post a scan or photo of the reciept? You're welcome to cover the price information if you wish.
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I told them they could cover parts of it if they wanted to. Why didn't they just say, "Sure, there isn't much on the receipt but I can email it anyways." It's like they are trying to get out of it. Maybe they just wanted to say they have a receipt but didn't think anybody would actually want a copy. But, I'll try. My questions are listed at the end of the listing, in case anyone cares to follow...
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hosman, if they could possibly provide you with the museum contact info maybe you would have more success with them as to the history of the chair? Surely if they had it in their possession they would have records describing it in detail along with their estimate of it's age, etc.
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Yeah, I just asked that too. They said Shrewsbury museum. But in England or the US?
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Oh, I give up on her. She's not willing to show anything until it's purchased. Then don't mention that you have a receipt to show! You know, even if the receipt wasn't ever mentioned, I may have bought it. But the fact that she's sort of withholding the receipt and museum information until I buy it is just annoying.
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Hi Hosman,
That Pembroke table is way over-priced, as you've now decided (in fact all their items seem to be excessive). They were charging £35 for delivery within the UK which is quite steep, what would they charge to get it to the US in 5 days via air? Probably more than the cost of the item itself.
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I agree mario. It was a lot of money and shipping was 300-something dollars. I'll find one around here someday, I just really loved that one. :-\
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Hi Hosman,
Going back to your original subject, mirrors seem to be incredibly hard to date with any accuracy. I bought this mirror at Auction about 8 years ago, as a George III mahogany inlaid mirror (apologies for the photo quality) ... but I've never been sure whether it is early 19th century or a later Victorian revival .. :-\
That mirror really needs a clean!!
Take a look at some of these .... ::) ::)
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/8384905
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It's a beautiful mirror either way! I asked my husband for this one after that other one but he very quickly replied, "I don't like it." I'm pretty sure he just didn't like the price, even though I would have offered less. He said he doesn't like the gold. I asked the seller for pictures of the backside but didn't get a reply...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280621809294&ssPageName=STRK:MESINDXX:IT#ht_500wt_689
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Thanks Hosman, I paid c $180 dollars at the time + 15%, so it was quite steep if it's a later Victorian mirror. I can't see why they didn't post a picture of the reverse with all the others ... are they trying to hide something?
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I was wondering the same thing, lots of pics but none of the back. The front looks good and the engraving looks to be from the period, but the back would tell so much more. I wonder if they will ever respond to my email.
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You certainly can ... usually .... but the general quality of their photographs of the mirror is pretty poor (despite the high price tag of the object!), so you may not be able to tell as much as you'd like. But I still think it odd that they don't post one.
I'm not overly impressed by the portrait of Mademoiselle Contat, but she was on the stage in the latter half of the 18th c ..... and I can't see anyone 30, 40, 50 years later putting her in the picture, so it probably does date from that time.
I couldn't actually handle our mirror before buying it as it was hanging so high up and the auction was already under way.
After posting those last pics I've taken it down to give it a good clean and photographed the rear. I could tell that it had probably been re-silvered during some point in history. It shows a lot of age, but still could not pin it down! :-\
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Well, it's had 3 previous hooks in it's history. Four sets seems like a lot for something only 100-ish years old. I have a few heavy frames/pictures that are 100 years old and they all still have 1 set of hooks. But I suppose that doesn't say much, yours is probably heavier. What do you all think? Great mirror, I love the design!
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I am always leery when they can't provide proof of origin/dating information.
I like the mirror and the style. This was also very popular in the US early 1900's.
Sometimes the shipping costs aren't worth it....better to find one closer to home even if you pay more. The chance of damage is great coming across the pond.
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I'm OK with no proof of age if it is something I feel that I can make a determination of the age myself. But when you start getting into the stuff that is pre-1850, I find it much more difficult to do and if someone makes a claim that something is that old, I really want to know what they are basing that claim on.
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They sent me pics of the back of that french mirror. But I don't really know what the heck to think.
Aw man. I'm on the iPad so I can't attach pictures. Don't have Flash. I'll post them in a few...
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LOL, god almighty, going down this "old" trail again, i know i've said it before but i'll say it again anyway, just because it's old does not mean it is a good or valuable piece. Lets face it, they made junk in the 18th century just like they do today. Evaluating any piece of furniture/ decorative art on the basis of age is really the wrong way to go, in my view.
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Antiques are important to different people for different reasons. For you, it seems to be the quality, construction and the ability to use it today just as well as someone did in the past. Not everybody is that way. A lot of people are interested in the history of the item. That's it and that's all. We care about the age and if it was sitting in someones house during the revolutionary war. Or played with by a child during the civil war. I don't care if it's broken or has no use whatsoever. I dont care if an item sits on a shelf for the next 50 years. I care how old it is. Just like someone may be interested in fossils or broken bits of ancient artifacts. Are they useful at all? Of course not. They are pieces of history and some people care about age only. Nobody is right or wrong here. It's just frustrating when you keep critisizing me because I am interested knowing the age of something! I don't want something 30 years old that I love. I'd rather have something 200 years old that I love! It surprises me that you always want to know why I care about the age of an antique. You seem to be most interested in items 200+ years old, too. Why do you collect antiques that old if age is not important?
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I agree with your sentiments, Hosman, to quote that old saying, 'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder', and it is just as well that we have very different values, otherwise where would be the variety?
I also strongly agree with you on the importance of age. I can see a beautiful, well made reproduction and just because it is a quality piece it has very little value to me. I see a broken down piece that may have been everyday ware in some poor hovel and it touches me.
I can also see some exquisite pieces that are genuine antiques and they leave me cold.
Jacon admits that it is only his view, possibly rather pointedly made perhaps, but still only his view. I admire the quality of his boxes, stools, but would not really give them house room despite the names attached to them.They just don't appeal to me.... Just my view ;)
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I agree. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and interests. Maybe I'm just too sensitive. I just think its mean to laugh at me whenever I want to know how old something is before I buy it. I'm a beginner and really need the advice and the help. How about just helping me out, you know? Jacon is a library of knowledge when it comes to antiques of that age and I'd appreciate the help identifying the repros.
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I don't think you're being over-sensitive, Hosman. I admire the fact that someone your age has such a passion for antiques, and that you have a yearning to learn! If you step out of the box ever so slightly, then you'll realise (which you probably already have) that what actually gives objects such a value, over and above their intrinsic value, is people, people like you, like me, like Jacon. , and all the others on this forum and out there in the world. The danger is that you (not you personally) start to value your own opinion over that of others', a sort of antique snobbery. I suppose we're all guilty of that to some degree. ;)
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hosman, I'm in the same corner of the playground as you. I see the things I own and the ones I have picked up as 'friends'. We all gravitate to certain people for very personal reasons. I have a strong attachment to the pieces that have been passed on to me and have been drawn to some rather off beat pieces for some probably strange reasons (proof is in some of my previous posts). The pieces that were handed on, I know my family history.......so finding out their approximate age I can gauge how many hands they have been through or for how long they were in the possession of the people close to me. The ones I have taken a shine to, knowing their age and possibly where they came from, in a sense brings me closer to them. I honestly don't give a hoot about their $$$ value, because like friends and family they mean more than that.
Since joining this forum I have learned so much about the history and value of items that I or my family once had in our possession and due to unfortunate circumstances had to let go. Some pieces.....those that had belonged to my parents and which were passed down or bought during their early years were let go to cover nursing care and end of life expenses that we were unable to. I hate to think what was passed out of the hands of my grandmother, after the loss of her husband and trying to raise her family in the 20' and 30's before the assistance available today.
I have also, on the other hand, learned much about pieces I have let go for similar reasons.......but with a few exceptions, none of them come back to haunt me due to 'missing' them. Only for the fact that without the bit of knowledge I have now, I basically gave them away when I could have realized so much more. But those pieces were not ones that 'spoke' to me or held any great hold on my heart. I have seen ones (even tortured myself watching them be sold) that had I the resources, would love to have in my possession......ah, but we can all dream.
Everyone has their reasons for their attraction to and love of antiques.......I think for some of us it's because they are or possibly will become part of our 'family' and as such we want to get to know them better.
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I have been out car shopping for my daughter so I must have missed something going on. Hosman, I do not think anyone is picking on you or being mean but it may be how text is deciphered compared to the spoken word. There are no voice inflections or facial expressions to see how something is said or meant to be. It is difficult to express feelings one way or the other through internet text. Sometimes things can be taken the wrong way when they are not meant that way. I think everyone on this forum is amazed at your desire for knowledge and antique searches. I know I am. At your age I was more interested in hunting and fishing but I did attend many auctions for useable tools and fishing gear. If I spent more time researching antiques and pursuing them then, I would be much more knowledgeable now. You have a head start that will pay off years down the road. Maybe a little jealousy is playing a small part?
The danger is that you (not you personally) start to value your own opinion over that of others', a sort of antique snobbery. I suppose we're all guilty of that to some degree.
This quote from mario is really true. I think it is very easy for many of us advanced collectors (in whatever we collect) to become jaded toward newer collectors. What they find fascinating, we have been there and done that, and now we are farther down the road where only the more rare or difficult items get us excited. I think it is very easy for any of us to overlook the fact we had also been there and were equally fascinated by our newfound objects, no matter how common they seem to us now. I think it is very hard to overcome that tendency but for the most part, we do try because "if you think you know everything" the game is over. Learning should be a lifelong experience and believe me, I have learned a lot about many things on this forum. That said, I still do not understand glassware.
I just wish I could type and spell today. ;D
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I think it is very hard to overcome that tendency but for the most part, we do try because "if you think you know everything" the game is over. Learning should be a lifelong experience
That just about says it all ... ;)
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We all get different things from the antiques that we love and we are touched by them in different ways. Sometimes it is an appreciation of quality and other times it is an appreciation of history, however humble the item.
When I was at the Egyptian Museum in Cairo, surrounded by the fabulous antiquities in the Tutankhamen wing, what moved me most was a battered pair of papyrus sandals that Tut had worn as a little boy. I could see the imprints of his feet in them. Those sandals made him a real person in my mind, much more so than all the treasures.
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LOL, gee wiz, this certainly seemed to touch a nerve. My point was that to focus almost exclusively on the age of a decorative art object in evaluating that object kinda misses the point. It would be like fine art collectors evaluating paintings or sculpture based on their age. Dinosaur dung is old but that doesnt mean it would look good displayed on ones fireplace mantle.
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Coprolites, at least some of them, look pretty neat when polished, so they could be a focal point of a mantle just as any other found object could be a showpiece. Fine art collectors do evaluate paintings and sculpture based on age or they would be buying more fakes than what they currently are. Age is a MAJOR consideration but not the only one. Hosman likes to know the age of everything she is interested in because if it is too 'new', she is no longer personally interested in acquiring it. If she is looking for an 18th century mirror, she does not want a 19th century mirror that looks like it is 18th century. She wants the real deal (at a good price). That is her personal preference and direction and she would just like to have some objective input from persons more knowledgable than herself on objects she is interested in. I think that is her position. We can help her by raising questions or offering insight that she may have overlooked. In return we get to see some interesting items that stir our knowledge. Age is a BIG deal to her but it is just one facet she uses to determine if she likes it. If the age isn't there, she would rather pass. JMO and maybe not hosman's.
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Why do you collect antiques that old if age is not important?
Yes! If all we cared about was appearance and functionality, we could all get reproductions instead. They look the same, are usually in better shape and normally cost less. :)
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First of all apologies to Jacon for reproducing part of my PM, but I think that these are points worth sharing.
I agree with Wayward, and I can certainly empathise with Hosman. Age to me 'can be' (but not always) extremely important. I see age as a consequence of the passing of time, and there is nothing more mysterious and fascinating to me than time itself. What gives me an emotional response is when I think about what has occurred in those intervening years; also holding something that is a a physical link to a time, people and possibly even places that are long gone.
Hosman, in my opinion, is not being dismissive of all the other qualities of an item (please correct me if I'm mistaken, Hosman), I am pretty sure that she is able to appreciate the quality and beauty of a piece and really value the craftsmanship that goes into an object, but as AngelaH says, 'If all we cared about was appearance and functionality, we could all get reproductions instead. They look the same, are usually in better shape and normally cost less.' There is more to being passionate about collecting than 'workmanship', 'age', 'price tag', 'rarity' and so on ... it can be a combination of any of these, and it also (IMO) involves an emotional response to an object.
There are people on this forum who get excited about $2 vintage coke bottles, and I am one of them, because there is an emotional reaction. It doesn't need to be 200 years old, or a piece of quality, or worth $15,000 for it to be of real value to someone.
The problem here is that what seems to have become the topic under discussion is the interpretation of 'value', and as we all know value is not the same as the price tag. Value is a very personal and intangible concept, impossible to predict. As Wayward says, Hosman wants an 18th Century mirror and not a 19th century repro. She sees value in the thing being original and of the period. She is in good company, none of us like being hoodwinked. I can buy something knowing it is a repro and live with it quite happily. If I bought the same item believing it to be original and then discover that it is a repro then I might feel very disappointed.
I have no problem with 'facts', I e-mailed an ebayer recently and advised her that her piece could not be Art Deco as it had a label for the Czech Republic, and she thanked me for it and changed the listing. Facts are important, I constantly remind my students that if they don't support their comment then they are only presenting their opinion, and 'they get no points for opinion'. This is where the problem seems to exist, When forum members comment on the value of something, and how certain people are too involved with the 'age' of an object, these are all interesting points, but are only opinion, reflecting their personal beliefs. Even if they were to quote a thousand so-called experts on fine art, it would still be opinion, it could never be a fact. Facts are tangible, indisputable ... even though some people on the forum and in the big wide world may choose to ignore them.... whether something has value over and above its intrinsic value is a very personal thing and can never be defined as a 'fact'..... Do the works of Damien Hirst and Tracey Emin have any value? They have jolly big price tags, but I would rather have a 1950s Coke bottle worth $2, because it excites, within me, an emotional response that a cow in formaldehyde and an unmade bed, or even their price tags, could never come close to reproducing.
We are here to help each other, to pass on our little pearls of wisdom to anyone who wishes to take advantage of them, and even to those who choose to ignore them, I hope we're not here to lecture people on what they should or should not hold dear. As I suggested earlier, it is so easy to belittle other people's knowledge, passions, values and even opinions if they don't measure up to our own. I am often guilty of that, but I am aware of it.
Apologies for going on so much.
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Mario, finding an old Coke bottle with the one's town on the bottom is priceless. I look at every one I see.
I share your perception of value and price tags also. Some things I love other's scoff at but it makes me smile.
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I am vintage and love antiques! To qualify as an antique...Age Does Matter! (100 years or more) When my daughters bring home a date....Age does matter (much less than 100 years) When one is touting that something is from a particular time - because they usually boost the price in claiming that...age does matter! So...it needs to be substantiated if that claim is made.
As for the dinosaur poop....I have seen some pretty amazing petrified dino poop over the years from friends/family that are geologists (dated even)....AND it does look great on their mantles!!!!! LOLOLOL :) In fact my cousin discovered some rare dinosaur finds that have been on display in the Smithsonian for years!
FYI, if you search....you will see some mighty beautiful pieces of coprolite polished and set in silver/gold and worn as jewelry. All in the eyes of the beholder!
But this site is great at being open to jousting back and forth at times, humor and tongue-in-cheek. It helps us all to keep in check!
I JUST LOVE THIS SITE!!!!!!