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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: hosman321 on February 07, 2011, 01:41:06 PM
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I bought two 1890's-ish medicine bottles at the antique show last night. After researching this one, I found out the stuff inside is really nasty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_cyanide
It's boiling point is 79 degrees. It gets hotter than that in my house during the summer. The top is damaged badly like maybe it has boiled in the past and it burst. Some of the liquid is dried around the top. :o
What should I do with it? I can't sell it because I can't ship it. Ideas? I won't throw it out. Be careful with antiques guys! If this bottle did not still have the labels, I would not know what the liquid was and it would have possibly burst out poison!
Wikipedia:
A hydrogen cyanide concentration of 300 mg/m3 in air will kill a human within about 10 minutes. It is estimated that hydrogen cyanide at a concentration of 3500 ppm (about 3200 mg/m3) will kill a human in about 1 minute. The toxicity is caused by the cyanide ion, which halts cellular respiration by inhibiting an enzyme in mitochondria called cytochrome c oxidase.
Hydrogen cyanide absorbed into a carrier for use as a pesticide (under IG Farben's brand name Cyclone B, or in German Zyklon B, with the B standing for Blausäure)[24] was employed by Nazi Germany in the mid-20th century in extermination camps. The same product is currently made in the Czech Republic under the trademark "Uragan D2." Hydrogen cyanide is also the agent used in gas chambers employed in judicial execution in some U.S. states, where it is produced during the execution by the action of sulfuric acid on an egg-sized mass of potassium cyanide.
Hydrogen cyanide is commonly listed amongst chemical warfare agents known as blood agents.[25] As a substance listed under Schedule 3 of the Chemical Weapons Convention as a potential weapon which has large-scale industrial uses, manufacturing plants in signatory countries which produce more than 30 tonnes per year must be declared to, and can be inspected by, the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons.
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Hosman OMG Please please be careful!!!!!! I know the Fire Chief in my town very well so I would probably contact him and ask what to do with it. Keep us posted !!!!!!!
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Yea... I'd probably call poison control for this (or fire or your local non-emergency police dept #). Unfortunately, they are probably going to take it from you but TBH, I wouldn't want that in my house. In the meantime... I'd place it outside. There is a good chance it's no longer what it says it is but honestly, I wouldn't want to find out the hard way.
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It seems incomprehensible that someone has kept such a lethal chemical for so long. I think that the name would be a bit of a give away, and then to sell it to you? (assuming the contents are original) Whatever, take care!
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Not sure but isn`t that the same stuff used in gas chambers in the past?? It may be illegal to even own it !! Can`t imagine anyone selling something like that. Did you ask about the contents when you bought it? Is it labeled ??
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Yeah, they used it in gas chambers. I didn't ask about them when I bought them. The other one is full too. The other one is labeled ammonium caust, which i dont think is bad. It may not be the original stuff. The only way to know is by some sort of test or by taking it somewhere. And I want my dang bottle back if they take it! :P
It just makes me nervous that the top looks like it exploded. But I guess someone could have filled it with other stuff after that...
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There's a test called the Prussian Blue Test but I don't understand any of it. I'll leave it to someone qualified.
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This confuses me...
http://www.henriettesherbal.com/eclectic/potter-comp/acidum-hydr.html
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Seems it's all to do with the concentration. This is probably a very dilute solution, hence its pharmaceutical use. But I still wouldn't trust it.
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This is HIGHLY TOXIC stuff in any concentration! Put on some rubber or nitrile golves and a face mask and take it and put it in a sealed container such as an inert plastic bottle with a screw top lid and tape the lid shut with duct tape or electrical tape and then take it to your hazardous waste facility and dispose of it. And then I would contact the dealer that sold it and tell them all about it and get your money back and maybe even report them for dealing in hazardous substances without a permit. What kind of antique dealer would even think of selling something like this? Just because it was OK 100 years ago does not mean it is OK today. People drank radium infused water, drank soda with cocaine in it, and all kinds of other unproven elixirs of their day. Today we have celebrities promoting junk like Activa but at least the modern day snake oil is safer...maybe.
OMG, hosman, be EXTRA careful with this or you will be lucky to be in the hospital.
Oh, I forgot but that herbal post link was quoting from 1902 so forget about it. 1902 was so yesterday.
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Isn't it illegal to sell this stuff without disclosing the dangers or proper handling? I think you should be able to get a refund and ask the seller if they want it back or if they will reimburse you for the disposal expenses. Thank goodness it didn't leak in your car or something. I think I would keep this stuff outside in a safe place until you can get it disposed of.
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I think these folks can help you dispose of it properly.
http://www.cityoftacoma.org/Page.aspx?hid=1659 (http://www.cityoftacoma.org/Page.aspx?hid=1659)
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I think I would just turn it over to the police dept. and let them handle the seller. Dealing in those substances is not a good thing !! If not, he may continue selling stuff like that and someone that didn`t know better would wind up in the hospital or worse.
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Very good point. He could have a case of it in a basement someplace! :o He/she probably has no idea what the stuff in the bottle they sold was capable of.
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Don`t know,, but I think anyone that can read would know what cyanide is. Some of those are more dangerous when exposed to simple elements such as water. They turn into a gas. Can`t remember which ones !! Been too long since I was in school !! Kind of like mixing ammonia and household bleach,, each alone is ok but when they are mixed you get chlorine gas !!
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History of the pharmacy this bottle is from - Boericke & Tafel (Mighty reputable) Their products are still available today!!!!
http://julianwinston.com/archives/bt/bt_history.php (http://julianwinston.com/archives/bt/bt_history.php)
According to this the Madison location must have closed in 1915.
I would be leery of this....but believe it is a concentration even at this date. BUT I WOULD BE CAUTIOUS. My grandparents even had some in their cabinet when they passed away. I know it was used for cholera and heart problems and from what I could find that is what B & T used it for as well. It is still used in areas where cholera breaks out!
Boericke wasn't a nut...he was highly reputable!
"William Boericke, MD 1849 - 1929
William Boericke was born on October 25, 1849 in Austria. He studied for one year at the Vienna Medical School and then immigrated to the Unites States where his family settled in Ohio. In 1870 he moved to San Francisco to take over the Boericke and Tafel pharmacy.
He graduated from the Philadelphia Medical College in 1876 and from Hahnemann Medical College in Philadelphia in 1880. Moving to San Francisco he practiced as a homeopath for over fifty years.
He was editor of the California Homoeopath and co-founder of the Pacific Homoeopathic Medical College and Hahnemann Hospital in 1881. This facility was eventually incorporated into the University of California, where Boericke became the first professor of Homoeopathic Materia Medica and Therapeutics, a post he held for thirty years. He was also on the faculty of the Hahnemann Medical College in San Francisco.
In 1901 he authored Boericke's Materia Medica. His brother Oscar added a repertory to the book in 1906. This 'pocket manual' finds its way into almost every homeopath's library. It is a concise guide to hundreds of remedies, some of which appear nowhere else.
Many a homeopathic professional has depended on this work for daily practice. Along with Willis A. Dewey he wrote The Twelve Tissue Salts, published in 1888.
From 1880-1920 Dr. Boericke was the physician of choice in San Francisco. Consequently, his family belonged to the 'high society' there. In fact, patients came from all over the world to be treated by him homeopathically. He was a hard worker and his family was devoted to him.
On April 1, 1929 he died of a massive heart attack. A few months before, he had developed angina symptoms after racing his son down Tamalpais Avenue. For a man in his late 70s he was still physically active.
Two months after he died, his house burned down. All that was left was the stone fireplace and all of his homeopathic books."
http://www.wholehealthnow.com/books/pocket-manual-india.html (http://www.wholehealthnow.com/books/pocket-manual-india.html)
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Nice , but toxic , find , hosman321 !
Cyanide , lime & zinc are very commonly used in gold refining/extraction (MacArthur-Forrest process) , along with all the other uses .
I've used cyanide in processing gold & 'black sand' that I've prospected myself .
It is very dangerous , but is very common with the mining industry , and with old-time jewlers who do a bit of gold refining/extraction .
I'd guess that your bottle contains a very low concentration of cyanide , which of course is a potent poison/toxin , but not really a WMD .
The fact that there has been leakage from the container (which may have crystalized around the cap) is a cautionary note , though .
Since you keep birdies & other pets (that are extra-sensitive to toxins), perhaps you will want to dispose of the bottle & contents like some have suggested .... if not , triple-seal the container & put it where no one can accidentally 'discover' it & wait till you get the gold-prospecting bug .
I had a friend who'd purchased a 'lot' at an auction & discovered a small vial full of clear-ish liquid with a small chunk of mat'l within in it ... his curiousity got the best of him & he emptied the vial onto a dinner plate , in the kitchen .
He could see that something was happening , so he went & got water to again submerge the 'chunk' of unknown mat'l .... it wound up being sodium (& it exploded/reacted upon contact with the water) , which inspired his wife to point some very colorful language in his direction .
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Sodium what ??? Sodium cyanide ?? Sodium bicarbonate ?? Table salt sodium?? I am curious !!
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Sodium what ??? Sodium cyanide ?? Sodium bicarbonate ?? Table salt sodium?? I am curious !!
Hi Mart,
Just sodium. I recall our chemistry master taking us out into the freezing cold to demonstrate what happens when you drop it into water.... quite impressive, but didn't do anything for my grades :(
I'm sure there'll be a few examples on youtube.
Here's one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bAhCHedVB4
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Metallic sodium and potassium are both extremely reactive if they come in contact with water.
Ya might say they will make water burn.
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I know it sounds crazy, but I'm not willing to throw the whole bottle away. I just don't think it's totally necessary. I know the bottle is only worth about $10 but it's still important to me.
Fancy, since you seem to have some experience with it, do I really need to worry about dying or injury just by opening the bottle? Can I open it, pour it into a glass mason jar and then take it to hazardous waste? Of course I would do it outside and wouldn't expose it to water. I would wear a mask, goggles, bandana and long gloves. Obviously people 120 years ago had to open the bottle to use this stuff. I dont think they all died. I think it really might be the real stuff because it has crystallized around the top. I don't think I could ever find the seller. There were literally hundreds of tables at the antique show and everything was cash with no receipts. It wasn't like at a store. What an idiot for selling something so terrible! I research every little item I buy, a seller at a big event should have the common sense to do a 1 minute search online.
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Do you remember the booth number where you bought it ?? If the spaces were rented, whoever organized the show should have a record of the names of the sellers. If you have a doctor or pharmacist that you could call, they could probably tell you if that would be ok . At least they have the background in chemistry to know what is safe to do as well as tell you how to dispose of it.
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Hosman321 , it's probably not legal for me (an engineer , not a chemist) to advise about disposal of the contents of your bottle , except to take the contents to a haz-mat recycle/disposal facility .... or an alternative would be to first contact a haz-mat facility to check on the current methodology/protocol for disposal of the suspect liquid .
Being a cantankerous sort though , I'll issue the following comments &/or facts for your consideration :
Generally speaking , hydrocyanatic acid , when used in pharma products , is of a total concentration of around 2% to 4% .... slightly higher concentrations of around 6% have been known to be found in 'antique' solutions .
The 'powdered' substance around the stopper may contain higher concentrations , and can be rather dangerous in airbourne situations , or by simply touching/disturbing (with no barrior ; gloves,etc.) the powder .
Since it's really an unknown factor (what your item actually contains) it does not make much sense to assume that anybody knows what you've got there , let alone advise on what to do with it .
Speaking of assumptions , I'm guessing that you want to 'save' the labels on your item .... what follows is NOT advice , however ....
I might do something (with protective gear) where I could submerge the stopper in distilled water (including the residue 'area') and gently remove the stopper , with the intent of further diluting the concentration within the bottle .... then I might do as you've suggested , transferring the diluted solution to another glass container to be taken to a haz-mat facility .
A full & proper wash-down of the container & stopper , gloves & anything that may have come into contact with the liquid within your container following its' transfer would be in order too .
Again , please consider any words about handling this issue on a DIY basis as simply musings , nothing more !
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If you want to save the label,, get a plastic freezer bag and put the bottle inside with a stout rubber band around the neck of the bottle to keep water from taking the label off or smearing it.