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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: Marc-Barr on March 05, 2011, 03:25:42 PM
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I inherited a bunch of antiques from a friend who passed away. He bought and collected everything. Came across this and I have never seen anything like it before. The pad opens up and is for golf scores. It has a demon's or devil face with initials inscribed. Also has a pin,as if you were to wear this or pin it to some kind of fabric. Has a bottle with a top that unscrews. A round mirror and some other strange items. I have NEVER seen anything like this before. It tangles very easy by the way and is very ornate. I can even begin to describe how the scroll work and the detail in this item.Any suggestion on what it is would be appreciated.
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Another shot
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It's not allowing me to post anymore pics. Says they are too large and I can not make them smaller.Won't even allow me to post one pic.I'll keep trying but it's taking a long time.
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Couple more
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Ever try to buy a gift for someone who has everything ?? If I am not mistaken,, that is what you have. A Victorian mobile evidently for someone that liked golf !! If you think that it is for golf scores. I think it would hang by the short piece that has the metal bar attached in the middle. Hold it up by that piece and see if each piece hangs at different levels. Should look same as a mobile for a baby. may have a piece that is centered and clinks against the others if it is all there. There is a monogram on the square piece in english scroll I think !! Good thing is it is probably at least silver plate and could be sterling. Look closely for hallmarks on back of each piece.
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I'm sure we had something very similar to this several months back but I cannot remember what it was. Does anyone else remember? Someone had it hanging from their ceiling but it wasn't really meant for that. They got it from their grandmother, I believe. ???
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Oh, so it really was a mobile? :P
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But it has a score card booklet thingy. Was it meant to be worn somehow? On a jacket?
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My first thought was watch fobs that someone stuck together (?)
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Not sure !! Know they were popular during Victorian era with the grand old houses they had,, but I have never seen one personally. Sure looks like it !!
Doubt it, actual use was not necessary then. Like I said it could have been made and monogrammed for someone who had everything ! Or could have been awarded for a club tournament.
Could have also been made with items belonging to a person that had died as a remembrance.
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Here is the other thread.
http://www.antique-shop.com/forums/index.php?topic=6174.msg21732;topicseen#msg21732
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatelaine_(chain)
Yours is very beautiful, and a very well-to-do golfer probably owned it!
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Thanks for the replies!!! Yes, it is marked Sterling 925. I can not imagine wearing it but you never know. Perhaps it was attached to a golf bag(???) It looks very fancy and the cards are unused.Thanks again for the suggestions.
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I don't know why that wikipedia link won't work. It's because the last symbol is not included in the shortcut. Let me try again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatelaine_(chain)
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Nope, didn't work. But here is the description.
Chatelaine is a decorative belt hook or clasp worn at the waist with a series of chains suspended from it. Each chain is mounted with a useful household appendage such as scissors, thimble, watch, key, vinaigrette, household seal, etc.
Chatelaines were worn by many housekeepers in the 19th century. They were also worn by Anglo Saxon women, as seen from the burial record.
The name chatelaine derives from the same term used to mean the female owner, or wife of the owner, of a large house. Originally the chatelaine was designed to have all the tools necessary for the woman of the household to sort out any problem she may encounter in her day, like a fraying curtain, however with time the chatelaine and the objects it held evolved from being a purely utilitarian object into a decorative symbol that reflected the status of the wearer.
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I'm guessing the little bottle on yours is a scent (perfume) bottle. I bet a woman wore this and kept score on the green. Here are similar victorian chatelaines.
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=victorian+chatelaine&_sacat=0&_odkw=gold+chatelaine&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313
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Well, didn`t think about that !! Saw a pic of a Victorian room once and had one similarly shaped hanging in front of a window from a hook. Didn`t think about a deodorizer !! I just figured a pretty mobile !! He didn`t say,, but how big is this thing ?? I am curious !! All the chatelaines I have seen and that is in pics, were made a bit different from this object. They were made like the one on the other thread. This one looks like it hangs different.
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I'd say that the bottle may have held snuff , rosin ('chalk') , talc or cocaine .... don't think it was for perfume or smelling salts though ... not large enough for 19th hole either .
Curious to know if the cylinder still contains pencil/leads (graphite) for scorecard ?
Cool little unit !
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Yes! You've got a BEAUTIFUL and highly collectable chatelaine. The lady of the house would wear this on her waist and have access to keys, pen, notebook, thimble etc. These are very popular with collectors. Reenactors like me drool over these! Congrats!
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That would have to be the most uncomfortable thing to wear !! Looks like the round object on the longest chain would hit about the knees !! That would not have been fun to walk while wearing it !!
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No, chatelaines aren't anywhere near that long. They just dangle from the belt. The items on them are usually only an inch or two so long.
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These were very common in Victorian times and were called Chatelaines or Lorgnettes.
Usually though it was a dance card to be marked on or note pad. The bottle generally would hold perfume and in some cases smelling salts.
A site with some examples: http://www.morninggloryjewelry.com/chatelaine-aide-memoire-aid-63.html (http://www.morninggloryjewelry.com/chatelaine-aide-memoire-aid-63.html)
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Yes but... a lorgnette is a pair of opera glasses mounted on a handle. :-\
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First off, thanks to everyone for their helpful advice. Hosman321, Thanks for the research.I would not have known where to begin. I wonder if this can be adjusted?It hangs very low if it were to be attached to a skirt or even a jacket. It is very ornate and one person I showed it to said it looks as if it came from royalty.Again,thanks to everyone for the help and comments!
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I am coming to this thread late but have some observations. The top bar that everything is attached to would go through a buttonhole. All of these items would not be dangling about while someone is golfing, keeping score or whatever. The way these are arranged on various chains would have created a massive tangle in short order. These would have been in a pocket, to be pulled out when needed. I would guess this is from the late 1800s Victorian era as mentioned and the fact that there is a golf score card attached would make this EXTREMELY desired by golf collectors. Golf items from this era are very scarce and sought after. JMO.
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Wayward, Any idea why so many straight bars on it where the chain is attached at the end ?? I can see them in a pocket on a vest or something. Just never saw anything made like it !!
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No idea, mart. They are spreaders, so maybe they help to keep the chains from tangling? I was trying to find a golf scorecard of that vintage but have not yet. I think it is English/Scottish but not sure. If this was used by a woman golfer during the 1880s/90s, I think it would be quite valuable. This deserves more research by Marc-Barr in my opinion. The initials could lead to the owner/user. This must have been owned by a person of wealth and leisure.
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I'm gonna ask because I'm sure others are thinking the same thing but what would something like this be worth? How does one go about appraising an item like this. I saw the ones on Ebay and some were rather modest($75) and others went up to several hundred dollars. Just curious.
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I really do not know, but would guess in the hundreds of dollars. A golf scorecard in a silver engraved and decorated holder for a golf scorecard is scarce to rare. Golfing related items of this vintage bring $$$ and $$$$. If you could determine the owner/user through the initials, the price would go up. I would not sell this until all research was exhausted. This would bring more money in the UK in my opinion as the history of the game is there, especially Scotland. In the US, we are stuck with well known American players from the 1940s to recent. IMO.
I have 1 book on golf collectibles and there is nothing remotely resembling this in there. I the pieces are silver and British, they should be hallmarked and it would be easy to date them with these hallmarks. I would go over them with a loupe and determine what marks are on all the pieces.
I see the mirror is Foster & Bailey (F&B in a flag). I had a cigarette case with this mark dated 1910. The scorecard itself appears to be celluloid. The initials appear to be (in order) AAS so usually the last initial is in the middle so the name initials would be A.S.A.
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Here's an image of a 1907 celluloid golf scorecard & silver holder ....
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Yes, I think that sold for 80 pounds at auction. I cannot find one attached to a chatelaine. I believe Marc-Barr's dates to the 1890s because that is when celluloid's popularity started. I also looked at what few Victorian images of women golfers I could locate and none had chatelaines that I could see. They were dressed to the hilt in the style of the era. I do not imagine it was comfortable golfing. Most chatelaines of the were clipped to the belt but women's golfing apparel included short jackets that had pockets so this could have easily been pocketed and out of the way of a golf swing.
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I suspect a ladies golf swing would not have been then what it is today. The corset alone would somewhat restrict the followthrough of the swing. My guess (and this is just a guess) that it would have been more "lady-like" putting, but I could be totally wrong. 19th century women did all kinds of things in corsets and fully dressed like tennis, badminton and fencing, but I strongly suspect that it was not with the kind of athletic mobility that you would see from someone like Serena Williams.
It wasn't regarded as lady-like to run even as late as the 1920's. My grandmother told me once that she loved to run and would do it for the love of it and when people would stop her to ask why she was running (yes they really did!) she would tell them she was going to miss the street car! She was born in 1906. I'll see if I can find something more on this.
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(http://www.prints-4-u.com/store/images/7371892/7371892249.jpg)
(http://www.angelpig.net/victorian/wimbledon_ladies_golf_club_1890s.jpg)
Ooh look at this one! It features a strikingly familiar "club medal!" I think I just ID'd that part of your chatelaine! Now this lady has a pretty big golf swing, so it looks like they were not just putting:
(http://www.prints-4-u.com/store/images/7371892/7371892521.jpg)
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See the note at the bottom of this one- "Even while skating one wears the jingling chatelaine"
(http://yesteryearsnews.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/jingling-chatelaine-milford-mail-9-jan-1896.jpg)
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Tales,the medal in the illustration would have been engraved on the back side with the winners name. The one pictured has the initials of the golf club on the face. Marc-Barr's similar one is a mirror engraved with the owners initials. Interesting illustration of a chatelaine and skating. There is a silver medal used since 1868 that pictures women golfers on the face. It is in my golf collectible book. Out of all the women in the Victorian pic, I could not see one that had a chatelaine. I saw this earlier and blew it up as best I could. Nothing definitive.
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Gotcha, thanks for the clarification I missed that!
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Marc-Barr, his site could prove to be helpful http://www.womengolfersmuseum.com/index.htm
From the site...
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W O W !!!!! Thanks! I am overwhelmed with information now (LOL) Thanks again!!!