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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: velodude88 on May 10, 2011, 12:59:42 PM

Title: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: velodude88 on May 10, 2011, 12:59:42 PM: This object is about 7" long and about 3 1/2" wide, made of fairly thin metal (tin?). It's painted silver, has what's been described as pineapple, pine cone or fish scale pattern and has a screw top. It's about half filled with what look likes shot (variable sizes but around 3/16" in diameter). I've had a couple different opinions as to what it could be: 1) shot flask (hence the shot in it) or; sash weight. I've searched pretty extensively and have yet to see anything like it in either category. Any ideas would be much appreciated. Thanks.
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af40/velodude88/shot%20flask/2011_05090022.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af40/velodude88/shot%20flask/2011_05090025.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af40/velodude88/shot%20flask/2011_05090023.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af40/velodude88/shot%20flask/2011_05090024.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af40/velodude88/shot%20flask/2011_05090027.jpg)
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: mart on May 10, 2011, 02:23:42 PM: It does look like a shot flask !! Approx same size as a few I looked at !! Does the top unscrew ?? The pattern on the metal is just for appearances and doesn`t help with identification !! There are many different patterns on the ones I looked at !! It may at one time have had a top spout for powder measurements since the ones I looked at could be used for either black powder or shot !!
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: velodude88 on May 10, 2011, 05:01:11 PM: Yes, the top does unscrew although it's a little bent and the screw top doesn't work very well. Thanks for your input.
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: mart on May 10, 2011, 06:35:09 PM: I don`t see anything about it that makes me think sash weight !! Where the holes are on the sides could be for metal rings that a strap attached to so it could be carried over the head and around the shoulder. Similar to a ladies shoulder strap purse !!
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: waywardangler on May 10, 2011, 08:54:02 PM: I would say with 99% certainty that this is not a shot flask.

The two holes on each side appear to have been for a wire bail of some sort. It is very possible that it is a ballast of some type but I do not think a sash weight unless it is an external one.
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: Texasbadger on May 11, 2011, 06:01:32 AM: It looks like the weights for a Cuckoo clock,
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: Oceans64 on May 11, 2011, 07:29:57 AM: Tex - Not sure why that made me laugh but it did. It does look like it could come off a cuckoo clock! How on earth did you think of that?
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: jgardner on May 11, 2011, 07:42:19 AM: @ Tex, amazing you said that about it eing a weight for a coo coo clock.. that would be my best guess. Just not sure why there are holes on the side. Usually it would attach thru an eyelet at the top (where it is screwed off)
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: velodude88 on May 11, 2011, 09:21:10 AM: That would be one monster of a cuckoo clock! The two holes on the side do look like they're made for some sort of wire clip for holding or carrying the thing. If not a shot flask nor a sash weight, it appears that it would be some sort of ballast...and it could be adjustable based on how much shot (or whatever it is) was in it.
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: KC on May 11, 2011, 11:07:56 AM: I still think it could be a shot flask!!! My first glance said cuckoo clock and I didn't dare post it the other day or I know all of you would laugh so loud I could hear you here! But...they don't have connectors to hand from the sides even in older clocks.

I personally thought if it is somewhat smaller...more along the lines of a chatelaine for a lady! BUT they made them all sizes and designs for men as well. The following site has some of the more ornate/nicer ones ones I have seen in a long time!

For many examples at http://www.ambroseantiques.com/hornsflasks.htm (http://www.ambroseantiques.com/hornsflasks.htm)
(http://www.ambroseantiques.com/images/hornsflasks/flower1.jpg) (http://www.ambroseantiques.com/images/hornsflasks/irwin1401.jpg) (http://www.ambroseantiques.com/images/hornsflasks/irwin1281.jpg)
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: waywardangler on May 11, 2011, 12:13:39 PM: It is not a shot flask or a powder flask. No hunter is going to unscrew some small cap in the field and then drop it and not have a cap anymore. The flasks KC pictured are actually powder flasks for black powder. Shot was usually carried in a leather shot pouch that had a spring loaded lever with a cut-off in the spout to measure the load and then easily pour it down the barrel.
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: waywardangler on May 11, 2011, 12:16:04 PM: The pine cone design leads to the clock possibility. I wonder if it could possibly be a draw cord weight for a Victorian era curtain or something similar.

The fact that it has two holders for a wire bail would allow this weight to rotate or swing and always stay upright. It also has a design so this would be visible and not hidden in something.
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: KC on May 11, 2011, 05:14:50 PM: Okay....I am dingy and didn't put powder flask. Thanks for calling me on it....so needed! I still have to venture further.

Can't get on long enough to do anything with all the electrical/thunder storms rolling through the past few days! Lost electrical for awhile today as well.
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: waywardangler on May 11, 2011, 10:40:44 PM: Not really calling you on it, KC. I think you just had powder flask mixed up with shot flask. Something we all do from time to time. ;)
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: talesofthesevenseas on May 11, 2011, 11:35:03 PM: Especially when we've been sippin' on the whiskey flask! ;D
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: KC on May 12, 2011, 12:59:27 AM: I agree! LOL

The more I look at it...it resembles a pine cone more than a pineapple!
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: cogar on May 12, 2011, 02:14:31 AM: Uh, .... uh, ..... just because it now has lead shot stored inside of it doesn't mean it was originally made for holding lead shot. ;D
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: velodude88 on May 12, 2011, 07:15:25 AM: Good point. Maybe it was a whiskey flask! 8)

Re: pine cone or pineapple. It doesn't show particularly well in the photos but near the top (and also at the bottom), the pattern has what looks like (for lack of a better description) a "wrinkling" effect.

Also the screw top is in two sections - there's the threaded screw part and the top part that looks like it was brazed or soldered to the screw part.
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: Texasbadger on May 12, 2011, 07:17:39 AM: My dad brought back some Black Forest Cuckoo clocks from his stint in the military, I saw the pine cone and the holes for suspension loops and it just cried out. As for the lead shot couldnt that be to accurately measure the weight and "time" the clock?
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: mart on May 12, 2011, 11:04:30 AM: Only weights I have ever seen were solid !! Loss of one shot would mean the clock would be out of time !! I have one in now being repaired and cleaned. It has the pine cone design but the weights are solid for it !! It is Black Forest style that hubby brought back from Germany when he was stationed there !!
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: cogar on May 13, 2011, 03:06:45 AM: Quote
Mechanical clocks tell time using gears. They have two important parts: a mainspring and a pendulum. The pendulum keeps time and ensures that the gears move at the right pace: second by second. Instead of a mainspring, some mechanical clocks have weights that pull the gears at the right pace
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: mart on May 13, 2011, 08:18:44 AM: Not sure about a whiskey flask as most of those were rather flat in order to fit in a coat pocket !!
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: waywardangler on May 13, 2011, 08:39:54 AM: I was thinking a candy container but I can find no similar examples. Also a re-purposed antique food/snuff/spice container that might have had a paper label at one time. Pails had/have wire handles and many had food stuff in them originally so I was trying to think of something that would come in a container with a wire handle AND a small screw top opening. No such luck. Another conundrum.
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: hosman321 on May 13, 2011, 08:52:03 AM: I wonder if this was a christmas ornament? ??? Maybe the holes are from where it was hung on a garland/strand? They made pinecone ornaments in metal, glass, or plastic and most had removeable tops. For examples, go to ebay and type in pinecone ornament or pine cone ornament.
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: hosman321 on May 13, 2011, 09:02:48 AM: Glass examples:
http://cgi.ebay.com/2-Vintage-Silver-Glass-Christmas-Ornament-BIG-Pinecone-/310271697035?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483da2608b

http://cgi.ebay.com/antique-GLASS-CHRISTMAS-ORNAMENT-PINE-CONE-/230558621121?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35ae5d5dc1
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: waywardangler on May 13, 2011, 09:08:19 AM: Yes, hosman, that crossed my mind also but the size is a problem. 7" long and 3 1/2" wide and tin. Put a few of those on a strand and the tree will lean.
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: mart on May 13, 2011, 09:57:44 AM: Just looked at Liveauctioneers and it had several powder tins that had what appeared to be screw tops. But that still doesn`t explain the holes in the sides !! They were Civil War era !! I am thinking that whatever it was originally,, it was simply repurposed for shot !!
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: mariok54 on May 13, 2011, 11:43:07 AM: Quote from: waywardangler on May 13, 2011, 09:08:19 AM
Yes, hosman, that crossed my mind also but the size is a problem. 7" long and 3 1/2" wide and tin. Put a few of those on a strand and the tree will lean.

There's only 1" difference in the size, and would there be a great difefrence in the weight between thick glass and thinnish tin? ... but why the holes in the side?
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: waywardangler on May 13, 2011, 12:14:41 PM: Mart, powder tins that are meant to store gunpowder and what gunpowder was sold in, do have screw tops and very old ones are small screw tops. However, gunpowder tins also stand up. I have never seen a gunpowder tin that did not stand up nor have I ever seen any with side holes meant to (presumably) hold a wire bail handle.

Mario, the old blown glass ornaments that I am familiar with, are very thin glass and would weigh much less than a comparable tin cone.

JMO.
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: velodude88 on May 13, 2011, 03:01:57 PM: Not that this will help but I've posted a few more photos that show some close-up details. Also I emptied it of its content (photo below) and weighed it. It's almost exactly 100 grams (a fuzz under 4 oz) empty. With its content, it's 600g or 1 lb 5 oz.
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af40/velodude88/shot%20flask/2011_05130002-1.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af40/velodude88/shot%20flask/2011_05130003-1.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af40/velodude88/shot%20flask/2011_05130004-1.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af40/velodude88/shot%20flask/2011_05130006-1.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af40/velodude88/shot%20flask/2011_05130007-1.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af40/velodude88/shot%20flask/2011_05130008-1.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af40/velodude88/shot%20flask/2011_05130009-1.jpg)
(http://i991.photobucket.com/albums/af40/velodude88/shot%20flask/2011_05130012-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: mart on May 13, 2011, 03:10:29 PM: This is what I was talking about Wayward !! Note the ring on the side !! I know it isn`t the same !!
www.liveauctioneers .com/item/9151732!! Look and see what you think !!
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: waywardangler on May 13, 2011, 07:02:43 PM: Yes, mart, I see what you mean. I stand corrected. Definitely something to ponder.
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: kysfinest on May 13, 2011, 08:58:00 PM: ??? I don't know about you guys but this thing is driving me crazy trying to figure out what it is!! lol :-\
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: mart on May 14, 2011, 06:59:03 PM: Is the lid a flip top ?? Or is it just damaged ??? The underside looks separate with a hinge of sorts ?? Could be just the pics though !!

Good luck Kysfinest !! Hope you track it down !!
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: jgardner on May 15, 2011, 08:45:49 AM: Is the "shot" possibly ink pellets and thats a container for them..just an idea. ive seen ink pellets that look like the peices contained in this...uh..thing :)
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: KC on May 16, 2011, 11:05:57 AM: What bugs the pitooty out of me is that I have seen something like this before....the brain cells are not cooperating!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: mart on May 16, 2011, 01:01:17 PM: LOL Guess I can send good vibes that your brain cells get back in operation !! I sure want to know what it is !!~
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: kysfinest on May 16, 2011, 02:52:30 PM: still trying to figure this one out :-\ I've even been asking people what they think it is. I've gotten these responses so far.....Powder flask, fishing lure, cuckoo clock thing (lol), riot grenade and my favorite....light bulb! I'm pretty sure it's none of the above ...so my search continues!!!!
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: velodude88 on May 17, 2011, 05:32:23 AM: Re: flip top. No, it's not a flip top but the top was made in two pieces - 1) the threaded area and 2) the cap itself. And the two pieces were soldered (or brazed) together. The gloppy things shown inside the top are the clumps of solder. The top is damaged, the threaded area is bent and the cap is dented. I'm not sure that the cap part was originally attached to the threaded area as it is not what I'd describe as a high-quality solder/braze job. In fact you can see daylight through some of the area where the two pieces are attached together. I kinda wonder if originally something else was affixed to the threaded area and removed being subsequently replaced with the current cap - but this is just blind speculation.

Re: ink pellets. I soaked one of the pellets in water and it does not seem to dissolve. The pellets are pretty hard, as in lead shot. And after dumping them out on a paper towel, the towel was covered in what looked like pencil lead. Also, a friend who is a retired Navy EOD, suggested testing the flammability of the pellets and the pellets are not flammable.

The mystery continues... ???
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: waywardangler on May 17, 2011, 08:15:19 AM: Lead shot easily deforms with a hammer blow on a hard surface such as an anvil. It is also easy to scratch with your nail. It can also be melted with a propane torch into a puddle of lead. I have never heard of ink pellets or why one would test a pellet to see if it is flammable. Odd.

As to the screw cap not being original...that is possible but the odds of locating a threaded cap to fit an already threaded top are pretty high. Not impossible, but pretty high odds. I would guess the cap is original. I would also guess the sloppiness means this was not a finely manufactured item nor meant to be repeatedly screwed and unscrewed. The fact that the cap is not a stamping would lead me to believe this is a pre-1900 object.

I think it is a pineapple juice "box" from the late 1800s and is just missing the wire bail so one could carry it to lunch easily. ;D
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: velodude88 on May 17, 2011, 11:58:02 AM: It definitely deforms under a hammer blow. After a few blows, it was flat as a pancake (a very small, very thin pancake). Didn't try scratching or melting. The flammability test was to make sure it wasn't some sort of weird grenade - since he was an EOD person, he thinks explosives first.

What I meant about the screw cap was the top part of the screw cap possibly not being original as the workmanship to attach it to the threaded part of the cap is pretty shoddy.

The pineapple juice box is a possibility and it'd be super-healthy with the extra iron. ;D
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: mariok54 on May 17, 2011, 12:09:09 PM: You might plumb for Wayward's suggestion of it being a pineapple juice carrier, but I think that'll go down like a lead balloon! ;D
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: mart on May 17, 2011, 12:14:04 PM: Don`t you mean extra lead ??? You know,, you may be onto something about the grenade idea !! Shot + an explosive= grenade !! Could have been one and he removed the explosive !!

Quote from: velodude88 on May 17, 2011, 11:58:02 AM
It definitely deforms under a hammer blow. After a few blows, it was flat as a pancake (a very small, very thin pancake). Didn't try scratching or melting. The flammability test was to make sure it wasn't some sort of weird grenade - since he was an EOD person, he thinks explosives first.

What I meant about the screw cap was the top part of the screw cap possibly not being original as the workmanship to attach it to the threaded part of the cap is pretty shoddy.

The pineapple juice box is a possibility and it'd be super-healthy with the extra iron. ;D
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: velodude88 on May 17, 2011, 12:47:24 PM: Ah yes, the extra lead - it's a new nutrient added to pineapple juice. :D

After looking at it in person, my EOD friend ruled out the grenade idea. He's the one that said sash weight but that was wild speculation. I think he was disappointed it wasn't a grenade - he hasn't defused anything in a while.
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: waywardangler on May 17, 2011, 01:00:57 PM: Mario said...
Quote
You might plumb for Wayward's suggestion of it being a pineapple juice carrier, but I think that'll go down like a lead balloon! Grin

Originally, I thought of a chalk line but without a hole in the cap for the string to exit and a winding mechanism, I threw that idea under the bus. That would have been a plumb suggestion.
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: mariok54 on May 17, 2011, 01:04:16 PM: Too many puns! My little brain can't cope! ;D
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: KC on May 19, 2011, 03:33:28 AM: LOLOLOL :) LOLOLOL :) LOLOLOL :) LOLOLOL :) LOLOLOL :) LOLOLOL :) LOLOLOL :)
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: velodude88 on May 30, 2011, 08:57:21 AM: After seeing this page

http://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/the-metal-flask-successor-to-the-powder-horn/ (http://www.collectorsweekly.com/articles/the-metal-flask-successor-to-the-powder-horn/)

I believe this may well be a shot flask. Anyway it's now on Ebay.
Title: Re: Help in identifying this...uh...thing
Post by: mart on May 30, 2011, 11:48:10 AM: That was my thought !! Glad you have narrowed it down !!