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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: azzaro on June 08, 2011, 08:15:26 PM
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It is so tiny, it is impossible for somebody for carve this or even see the carving in detail with the naked eye.It is round and hollow. No markings at all. It is quite light so I think it might be bamboo. I used the super-close-up lens on my canon camera to take the following 3 pics. 2nd pic is for scale only. Pic is twice the size of my hand and the piece. I found this piece at a flea market last weekend and was quite amazed by it so I bought it for $10.
Pic #1:
(http://i52.tinypic.com/245zmet.jpg)
Pic #2:
(http://i54.tinypic.com/2jbvfh4.jpg)
Pic #3:
(http://i54.tinypic.com/2q8wnza.jpg)
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Wow, I just have to Say Nice item, and Thanks for posting it. As I'm not going to be able to make much comments on the item, I so think you have a most wonderful item. This would for sure be Tribal or Folk art of some kind. I would only be guessing at the age, but sure looks old to me. Someone spent some time on that piece. I look forward to watching this thread, and once again thanks for posting.
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Very interesting piece. Nice find!
I'm not sure that it is bamboo, but it is impossible to tell from these photos. Are you sure that it's only 2" in length? Seems like it could be a wee bit longer from pic 2.
Any chance of an end-on photo?
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Really cool! I want to know what it is too. In pic 3, it appears that the big long thing with a face is a dragon? ??? Chinese? Some kind of calendar?
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Year of the Wood Dragon? Just throwing ideas out there, by the way. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_(zodiac)
Of course, the link will not work. So, when it says, "Did you Mean Dragon (Zodiac)?" click on the link.
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The "dragon" looks to me more like a centipede/millipede and the etchings look like maybe from Africa or around that region. Hard to say what it is. The object is hollow but are both ends open or just one end? It is definitely not bamboo. There a couple of surface scrapes that are not like bamboo would scrape. It may be a calendar as hosman suggested or possibly a counter for harvest? Clear pics of the outside showing all the etchings may be helpful.
The wood may be ebony or something similar.
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I also would like to see some end photos as mario54 stated earlier. Please post!
Neat item......
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Looks like bone !!
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You're right, it does look like horn maybe. Especially in the first picture.
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??? mart says it looks like bone and hosman says she is right it does look like horn? I must have missed something because bone and horn are not the same. It could be horn as it is hollow and dark but I do not think it is bone. If there were some better pics, especially of the end, then it could be determined what the material is.
It really resembles the barrel of a duck call. All that is missing is the mouthpiece.
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I just meant it looked like something other than wood. My bad, you know I'm bad at getting my words together properly. ;)
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Just wait until you get older and can't even remember the word(s) let alone get them together properly. :P
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Oh, I'll just be a big ol' mess by then. ;)
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Here are the pics. Yes, it is 2.75 inches by 1.5 inches at the widest and 1 inch at the narrowest. My mistake on earlier posts. I just bought a ruler and measured it. And yes, Horn could be the only thing that is so symmetrical.
Pic #1:
(http://i53.tinypic.com/21d4c9x.jpg)
Pic #2:
(http://i55.tinypic.com/2i8dvk9.jpg)
Pic #3:
(http://i51.tinypic.com/deadll.jpg)
Pic #4:
(http://i51.tinypic.com/x0y9gw.jpg)
Pic #5:
(http://i54.tinypic.com/juk8wj.jpg)
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Sure looks like bone to me. The more I look at this I see a Celtic Design, and I would vote for some kind of Calender per say, Could be someone Check list, but with the amount of work on the decorations I would say something more sybolic, as a calender to help with season Growth maybe. Anyway I just again want to thank you for sharing, Wonderful Item that I would of easily paid that for it.
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I suspect it is horn. if it was bone, it would be dyed and then the scrimshaw detail would be darker not lighter.
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Could be horn !! When I said bone I was looking at the tiny fissures running lengthwise in it !! When I first looked at it my thought was a calculator of sorts !! Or something for counting !!
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On the body, there are some diagonal lines that are drawn across the grids. Where these diagonal lines go,there is nothing in the boxes...no o's or x's. I find that odd. Maybe this is some type of game etched on the barrel.
I still think the two banded figures are centipedes because they have many feet and banded sections. What is the square in the center signify? If the horn(?) could be identified then maybe the country of origin and then maybe what it is. For some reason it just looks like primitive African etching to me but it could be from some other continent also. I have tried searching under different wordings but nothing even close so far.
Anyone familiar with Mayan history? Could this be a calendar?
Myriapoda In Ancient Maya Art (Centipedes) http://www.my2k.com/2009/08/myriapoda-in-ancient-maya-art.html an image that is similar follows...
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Yes, It does like a centipede from the Mayan website and there is farming mentioned in that site too. I think we are getting closer to the truth!..and your observation about the lines is quite correct that where these go there are no x or o's. I did not notice that. What still fascinates me that the piece is so small it cannot possibly be drawn with the naked eye and they did not have magnifiers in the Mayan era. My eerie feeling is that this is if was done in Mayan times, then some non-human or super-human did these etchings. I don't thjnk there is any artifact so small in size with so much detail in any museum in the world. Also, what could the Mayan/super-humans have used to etch such a thing?. This etching is done with such a small and sharp object that it is quite possibly comparable to the sharpest of the sharpest strong needles in existence today. I would definitely have to take this to a University archaeology department next week when I get a chance. THEY CAN CARBON-DATE IT AND IDENTIFY THE HORN AS WELL. I will keep you guys posted and look forward to more inputs if somebody sees something more in the etchings. ANOTHER IMAGE IS ATTACHED TO SHOW THE SCALE OF THE OBJECT AND THE DETAIL. I tried wearing it on my left hand finger next to the thumb and it's exactly fits it to the nearest mm (using mm because its more accurate). I suspect somebody wore it on their finger as well in Mayan/? times. But as you can see the fine line etchings cannot be drawn with the naked eye on such a small object with such accuracy. NOTE that no two lines cross each other where it is not intended. They could have drawn this on a rock. But no, this was not something for everybody to see, that's why it is so small (my guess).
(http://i53.tinypic.com/2hfoy76.jpg)
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If its horn, its probably Rhino horn. Which is looked at in some cultures as a religious object !! Don`t think its Mayan although the symbols are similar but,,, !! Just wait and see I guess !! Let us know !!
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May I throw my two cents in. Could it be an ancient planting calendar in a Runic alphabet. They seem to have a similarity to Celtic styling and the dragons or centipedes look like bailed straw or hay with an artistic flair. The ancient calendars had eight seasons if I remember correctly, I can't see how many rows there are to count. Just an observation.
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Welcome aboard !! At this point we are all just throwing out ideas !! We welcome yours !!
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Yes, WT, throw out all the ideas you can because that is all any of us are doing at the present time. Hopefully, one may stick.
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Runic Alphabet?. I do see some symbols that are not x's and o's and there is a big X like character covering the corners of 4 squares. Will keep you posted..after my visit to archeology departments next week.
Here is a short video that I took==>
http://vimeo.com/24978661
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I found this poem in the Wikipedia site describing runes in terms of Horns ( Hey we may have something here..!!):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runic_alphabet
This poem is in regards to great physical challenges that must be overcome to achieve mystical wisdom.
In stanza 139, Odin continues:
Viš hleifi mik seldo ne viž hornigi,
nysta ek nižr,
nam ek vp rvnar,
opandi nam,
fell ek aptr žašan.
No bread did they give me nor a drink from a horn,
downwards I peered;
I took up the runes,
screaming I took them,
then I fell back from there.[20]
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Similar writing and style, although I don't know if it's related...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurd_stones
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Hi,
I think that radiocarbon dating might be a wee bit expensive. I know that it's probably cheaper and more accurate now but you might still have to be prepared to part with a couple of hundred dollars.
Re the intricacy of the piece, and it is wonderful, I would not underestimate the talents possessed by some of our ancestors.
It was great to see the video, and what that has thrown up is the pristine condition of the piece. If it is ancient then it has been extremely well looked after.
Let us know what the Archaeology Dept say.
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Radiocarbon dating would only date the horn (approximately). It would not date the scribings.
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I have shown it to some friends and it is definitely HORN and most say it is quite possibly related to the first and oldest European (Viking) settlement in North America in Newfoundland, Canada (500 years before Columbus). Mystery surrounds what they did here and where they went. There are still some ruins of their settlement here. I am in Ottawa, Canada. Here are the links..
http://www.bigsiteofamazingfacts.com/when-did-the-first-europeans-settle-in-north-america-and-what-is-the-oldest-european-settlement-in-canada
http://www.essortment.com/lanse-aux-meadows-ancient-viking-settlement-20980.html
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It does not look very Norwegian to me and I am of 100% Norwegian ancestry.
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Hmmm... I guess then the Mystery will only unfold after Archeologists at the University Of Ottawa take a look at it. I lived in Minnesota for 10 years and The football team is called the VIKINGS there since 90% of the people there are Scandinavian descent. I am greco-roman descent.
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Read about the Kensington runestone from Minnesota for some Viking history. http://kensingtonmn.com/runestonepg.html
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..And here are the pics to VINLAND..the oldest European (Viking) settlement in North America:
http://www.superstock.com/stock-photography/Viking+Settlement
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Here are the links to everything you wanted to know about VINLAND, as the Vikings called it, when they came to North America as first-ever European settlers around 1000 A.D:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland
http://www.pc.gc.ca/eng/lhn-nhs/nl/meadows/index.aspx
http://www.mnh.si.edu/vikings/voyage/subset/vinland/archeo.html
http://www.nfb.ca/film/vinland_mystery
http://www.canadianmysteries.ca/sites/vinland/home/indexen.html
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My first look @ your item : It 'looked' to me as if it may have been a 'bell' from the end of a wind instrument (made from horn/wood) .
The curious inscriptions on your item do not appear to have any great deal of patina to them (@ least it appears to my eyes so) , suggesting that they may be of much more recent work than the good 'ole 1000's .
The crispness of the cuts in the item also speak to this item not having a great deal of wear upon it (almost like sorta new-ish) .
Interesting whatsit , azzaro .
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The fact of the matter is whoever did this..in the good ole 1000s or more recent, they did not do it with the naked eye. You can hardly see the symbols ..much less etch them..the item is 2.75in by 1.5in. It is a horn 4-sure..It will be examined by experts in archeology to determine it's age and possible decipher what is on it. All the artifacts disappeared when the Vikings left in the 1000s after a brief stay..it's a Mystery..than Columbus came 500 years later..Mystery continues to this day..
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This etching is done with such a small and sharp object that it is quite possibly comparable to the sharpest of the sharpest strong needles in existence today. I
No problem, ....... as it is the other way around. The use of the sharpest of the sharpest predates modern by thousands of years ..... and is still preferred today for delicate surgeries.
Good quality obsidian fractures down to single molecules which can produce a cutting edge 500 times sharper than the sharpest steel scalpel blade
Because of this lack of crystal structure, obsidian blade edges can reach almost molecular thinness, leading to its ancient use as projectile points and blades, and its modern use as surgical scalpel blades. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsidian
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I have been thinking the same as fancypants as there is also no wear to this object. If utilitarian in use, such as a calendar or counter, it would be handled and the etchings would be smooth from use. In no way do I think it is from the pre-1900s. I was originally thinking Africa and the 1950s but could not find anything that looked like the centipede-like figures. I only put the Mayan centipedes out there because they were the closest I could find. I do not think it is from the Mayan times. I also think the horn is not that old and not rhino horn. I was thinking more buffalo or carved down water buffalo but I am not familiar with African dark-horned animals that much.
An interesting comment that it looks like part of a musical instrument. Bell part from a snake dancer's flute?
As to the smallness of the etchings...that has been done many, many times before by the naked eye with miniature books, miniature carvings, etc. Not unusual in the least.
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Thanks for the obsidian blade info. I did not know that. The only thing we now know so far is that whatever this is was so important that it had to be miniature-carved on a horn. Experts should have no problems deciphering the symbols if there are other artifacts like this. If they like what they see they can carbon-date the horn. This piece may or may not be something important, but it sure seems like somebody spend a lot of time to put it on the horn for frequent and quick referencing of information on it. Here is the pics again.
(http://i53.tinypic.com/rct1l3.jpg)
(http://i56.tinypic.com/2el9ie9.jpg)
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I sincerely hope that it is 'old' and even 'valuable', but as I mentioned after viewing the video, it seems to be pristine, and as Wayward and fancypants point out, it does not seem to have had a lot of wear, it is just ... 'so sharp'. Keep an open mind and be prepared to take bad news as gracefully as good news
But GOOD LUCK with it!