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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: cjmusic on June 11, 2011, 05:02:43 PM
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I recently recieved this item in a box of german books that my grandmother had .. the item i am wondering about is a match holder, there was a box of matches in it when i got buy i took them out. The item has a stamp on the front that says SE in a circle and on the side it has a stamp marked 980 which im guessing means its silver. i really am interested to know what the SE means and how old this item is and the value of it
thank you all in advance
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Oh, this item is just beautiful. Adam and Eve? Looks very art nouveau, right around 1890-1910-ish. Although I better let more experienced people weigh in on that. I'll see if I can go find some similar ones. Thanks for posting!
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no thank you ! i am glad to know i have somthing that is beautiful to someone else besides just me :) Yes i believe that is Adam and Eve on there with the apple and the snake it looks like .. i also think that around the stone piece might be gold ? im not sure though .. i found this in the bottom of a box of books .. the box was labeled german books and all the books where written in german. I was amazed after looking through the books as there was a ancestral passport for aryan detection during the time of the Nazi's. The small book is filled with info on family members dating all the way back to 1731 ! every entry is stamped and its very very cool. I think you had to have one of these back then to prove you where who you where and this was how you could get a job and what not
thank you again for your responce , i have been looking everywhere and i cant find a single thing about this item
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Welcome to the forum cjmusic. Along with hosman I'm no expert here but I thought this page might help you out......
http://www.925-1000.com/mexican_marks.html
Also, from what I can see your mark appears to be 900 not 980 and if it ties in with the above link it would date it 1900 - 1920's.
Will see if I can come up with anything on your Sc ;)
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It's like a treasure hunt, isn't it CJ?! I would love to find some cool stuff like that. When I am searching for "Adam Eve Art Nouveau", among others, I keep seeing the painting of Adam and Eve by Gustav Klimt. It appears that this painting was very popular at the time and represented woman's feminine power over man. I'm thinking that maybe he kind of romanticized Adam and Eve and others followed. Just an idea. If that's the case, the painting was done in 1917.
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Before I move on to another hit I want to post this (my memory is not my friend :D). If your 'number' does signify a Mexican mark and someone here can't come up with your maker you could join the forum on this site (see bottom of page) and post your pics there as well..........
http://www.925-1000.com/mexican_menu.html
Now back to the hunt!
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thank you, i found that one site as i was looking up silver markings. But the name that went with it did not make sense with the marking on the piece ? i have typed in alote of variations of the initials and cant find anything at all that is close to have anything with art / antiques
it would be nice to know what this is as my grandfather spent alote of time in germany during the war so did my father, my grandmother on my moms side was actually in one of the camps so i wonder if there was a reason it was in with the german books ? hmm
thanks mate
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Just looking at the magnified shot of the makers mark.....possibly Se ? and maybe surrounded by a backwards C ??
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http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/rare-victorian-adam-eve-sterling-match-safe
Not really similar, but just something I found. Maybe Klimt wasn't the influence...
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yes the marking is se and i though that maybe it could be a backwards C around it but im thing its just the way it got stamped on there .. but who knows .. i am no expert for sure
when i type in on google adam and eve match holder and similar things i keep getting that picture you posted, that one though seems newer maybe as its made of sterling ? well no nevermind thats not right
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i should put some pics up of the book with the family logs i mentioned .. i really think all of you would really be amazed by it
its a thing that i personally think i will end up selling though or donate or give to someone as its a subject i dont feel comfterble with
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cj, if you don't plan on keeping the book donating it would be a wonderful gesture......either to a family member who has a great interest in your genealogy or to a museum dedicated to preserving items from that sad and never to be forgotten time in history.
I can understand your discomfort, but it is also what made those who came before you who they were. Another member here, talesoftheseven seas (Tales) has been on the other end, actually trying to retrieve personal letters of direct ancestors that are basically being held hostage to the highest bidder.....when really the only ones with genuine interest are the descendants.
It would be wonderful to see a separate thread with your pics and some details on your family's 'life' book.
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I noticed that and it really mad me sad and frustrated ! i was looking up the document book and all i kept finding where links to ebay .. just a bunch of people selling them on ebay and there getting good money for them ! i feel thats an insult to sell somthing like that especially to the family
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I agree with Sapphire! A museum would be a wonderful place but there are also collectors who will pay for such amazing items. Many of us on the forum have Nazi-related items. Not because we agree with any part of it, but because they are pieces of history that deserve to be properly preserved. Whatever you decide, do not feel bad for owning them.
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In tales' case, the documents are awesome pieces of family history and the seller is selling them for a small fortune. They really have little monetary value to someone outside the family but they are being held hostage because he knows the family wants them so bad. GRRR
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The mark of "900" identifies it as coin silver and might be a foreign country such as Turkey. It definitely looks like a Se. inside a reverse C. The image looks like cloisonne to me and Adam & Eve as mentioned. I would like to know if this is a match box cover or a match box slide. In other words, how does the match box fit in the holder.
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Hi.. You say that there was a match box inside it, do you still have it? If it was contemporary with the piece, then that possibly might provide some clues.
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I do still have the match box but i put it out in my garage as it seemed to have some black mold on it .. the box was red and said victoria and under it safety matches and the box was heavily damaged
the matches would slide into the piece while still in there match box .. then you would slide out the match box out and pull a match out
i will take pictures tonight when i get home
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here is a picture of the matches that where in the match case when i got it, The matchbox was pretty beat up and looked to have some black mold on it .. prolly got wet or somthing
can anyone think of what Se stands for ? or sec or cse ? are there any artists with those initials you can think of ?
its so hard not knowing who made this piece
thanks everyone for all the help
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does anyone think that maybe the SE stamp on the front is somones initials who owned it ? i was looking up the initials SE and i found this .. her initials where SE and she was an artist .. what do you all think ?
here is a link
http://rwnaf.org/media-room/view/?id=68
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I do not think it is an owner's mark. I believe it is a maker's mark that has not been determined yet.
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i was thinking that and took about 3.5 hours today looking through thousands of makers marks and silver stamps and did not find anything at all ! only reason i thought maybe would be initials is becuase it seems like if it was the makers mark they would put it on the side with the silver stamp not right on the front of the piece but im sure you are right and it is the makers mark .. does any names come to mind with initials Se ?
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Thanks for posting a photo of the matchbox, but I'm not sure that it is any help to me. I was half hoping it to be a European make. The marks don't necessarily need to be a makers' mark, although I think in this case Wayward is probably right, it could just be the city where it had been Assayed mark. I was initially thinking Turkish, but at the time this was made I think that it would still have been the Ottoman Empire, and they had very distinctive markings.
Anyone able to date the matchbox? That will at least tell you the youngest that this piece can probably be.
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Victoria was a trademark name of the Universal Match Company that was founded in 1925. Looking at the timeline of their match names, Victoria would be in the 1940s, although no date was given. http://matchpro.org/Archives/Hobby%20History/UNIVRSAL.pdf
Looking at the stylized figures in the enameling, they also appear to be of a more modern design. I think the matchbox holder and the match box are likely of the same time frame...1940s.
A nice Victoria box on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/Victoria-match-box-/110699707034?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19c6377a9a
This eBay auction said they were from the 1950s or 1960s http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&rt=nc&nma=true&item=320675762537&si=N2iTzgs1A0JGPdKJK6DdoiBeJSU%253D&viewitem=
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i still have not been able to find anything out .. i contacted this guy who i thought would know and this was the email i got back
Your piece is 900/1000 silver fineness and was made in a country of Continental Europe (Italy or a country in East Europe: not Germany, Austria, Russia or France). I believe it was made about 1920.
Sorry but I’m unable to identify the maker.
Regards
Giorgio
does this sound accurate to everyone here ? i did see another matchbnox that was the most similiar thing i could find .. but it still was much different and was said to be made in 1893 and was done by the ____ brothers maybe ungas brothers ?
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That sounds about right to me, and the reason why he has discounted those countries is because they have easily identifiable hallmarks (but I don't know why he has included France, Germany etc. in east Europe.As Wayward identified earlier it is 900/1000, common to coin.
Wayward, you could be right that the matchbox and holder are contemporary, but I think that the figures look stylized because they are enameled, and not of the same quality as some of the finest cloisonne pieces. It looks like it is cloisonne but fairly crudely done (and I'm not being disparaging). I think that it looks earlier than the 1940s ... and would say anywhere between 1900 and 1920. JMO ;D
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Mario, I am not sure about dating this piece. Could be whenever that figure style was "in". I just clumped it in with the estimated match box date. I agree the cloisonne is not finely done but do not think the style of the figures is the reason. I think it is the artist.
The Se in the backwards C I believe is the artist's stamp. Probably a lesser known or local artist. In an earlier post I forgot to mention why I really do not think it is the owner's mark...owner's would have had their initials or mark engraved rather than had a special metal stamp made up. A special metal stamp would cost more than engraving and not worth the effort unless one was stamping many personal pieces.
This is coin silver, not sterling or silverplate. Not used much from what I have read except in foreign countries like mario said that do not have hallmarks established. I was actually thinking Russian but their cloisonne work is better done. I could not find a similar Adam & Eve image anywhere and that is why I think this is a small or local artist/firm.
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Mario, I am not sure about dating this piece.
You, me and about 6 Billion others I'd say! ;D
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I will stick my neck out and say it was made after Adam & Eve became famous! ;D
The mark could also be the mark of the retail company that sold it.
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I would date the piece around 1920 but have no idea about the mark ! I am just looking at the style !!
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this has been a tough one ! i have contacted 7 people now who seem they would know and nothing so far .. i think im just gonna put this over the fireplace or on my bookshelf of all my antiques and tell myself its a beautiful piece of unkown artwork :)
thank you everyone for all the help
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There are some very good dedicated silver forums, but I imagine you've already tried them?