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Antiques! => EBay Forum => Topic started by: hosman321 on August 22, 2011, 10:18:39 PM
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I decided I would like to start collecting pre-1800 sterling silver flatware, specifically Hester Bateman pieces. So, I purchased a Bateman salt spoon. I thought it was too good to be true (alarm bells!), it had a Buy it Now price of about $40, which was considerably less than the other Bateman items on ebay. I got it, looked it over for about 1 whole minute ::) and left positive feedback. A few minutes later I noticed that the spoon has obviously been broken in half and repaired at some point, which drops the value down to pretty much melt value. Being the newbie I am, I didn't know any better. I am still glad to have a spoon that old but I definitely didn't start my collection on the right foot. DON'T leave positive feedback until you look for damage! Use a loupe! The seller knew that the item had significant repair, they knew what they were doing pricing it cheap and didn't disclose the damage. Very frustrating.
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Something like that I might be tempted to return.... Positive feedback aside. If the seller knew about the damage (as you feel they did) then IMO it is close to fraud and should not be rewarded.
That kind of thing gets my ire up!!!
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They look for suckers like me, newbies who don't know any better. They knew it was repaired, they deal in sterling silver flatware and it was listed as Buy it Now at $40.00 whereas their others were auctions. Can you even return an item after you have left positive feedback? I think I will just keep it. I have my eye on another one that ends in about an hour. It is also listed fairly inexpensively at $59.99 but if I win it, I will look that dang thing over REALLY good. I bet someone with a sniper will snag it though. I'm not going over $59.99.
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Wow, I actually won it. :P
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Way to go Hosman Save the Silver. Right now with the value of high we are in the middle of another great melt down, This is the third in the last 100 years, what is left will be of great historical value. I have a really cool old spoon, that I keep wanting to post, but fear for it life, If I remember correct it is mid 1800's with english hallmarks, I picked up a few years back for $10.00. I just wanted to say good for you buying silver to save.
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Cool would really love to see this one, maybe I go take of pic of my little spoon for a bit of show and tell. Congrats
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I like silver because it is a good investment and is actually useable. The salt spoon was my first silver piece and I feel like I am getting hooked! I would love to see yours ironlord! Here's the one I just won. I think it's 1789 rather than 1790. I agree about the historical value. As time goes on, more and more will be melted down.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/140593903219?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
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Pretty cool, Looks like a fine piece of history for sure, two part spoons very hard to find. I thought the weight was a bit light though, half ounce? must be made really thin. Are you finding many spoons that date this early? Anyway, just took a few pics of my little salt spoon, have not looked into it for some time and forgot the hallmarks, I think it was London 185?. It is 4 1/2" Long and weighs 1.1 Oz.
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Oh, how beautiful! I believe those are called "picture back" spoons because of the design on the back. It is very unique. I am really confused about the date marks. It looks like it has the uncrowned leopard (after 1822) but the "U" looks like the 1815 "U". I have a lot to learn. :)
http://www.925-1000.com/british_marks.html
There's still quite a bit of 1700s and even 1600s silver flatware. Price depends on the maker. American stuff from the 1700s goes for the most because it is rarer. The Hester Bateman stuff is kind of in the middle. Not really rare but not really common. She was a woman silversmith in London from 1761-1790. Her life intriques me and I really want more of her stuff. :)
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Actually, I think it may be the 1835 "u".
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Cool that would be better the 1850's for sure, These spoons for sure have History. Think of the age, only the rich or elite would of had them, and these was used daliy, Just to think of the elegant meals these are seen.
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That's what I think of ironlord, oh the dinner conversations they must have seen! I imagine the fancy dresses the ladies were wearing, too. :)
Perhaps someone can edumacate me a bit about these. What is an overmark? How does this seller know that these are Hester Bateman spoons if there is no sign of her mark? ???
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-TEA-SP-HESTER-BATEMAN-STERLING-LONDON-1793-/170647877269?pt=Antiques_Silver&hash=item27bb67f695
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hosman, a brief explanation on 'overmarks'
http://www.guernsey-society.org.uk/donkipedia/index.php5?title=Biographies_of_silver_makers#Overmarks
"The biographies which follow have been expanded beyond the usual range of goldsmiths normally given in such accounts, to include those men, predominantly retailers, who seem likely to have overmarked imported goods, but whose marks have not been reported. In most instances, they would not have been observed, because they would normally have been overstruck on the marks of the makers of Victorian or Edwardian spoons and forks imported from England."
.........Followed by maker's biographies.
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Thank you Sapphire! If I understand correctly, they know the original silversmith just by the shape of the original mark? That seems a little iffy because most marks were just square or rectagular. How would they know it was Hester Bateman? Sorry, just trying to figure this all out. ;)
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Well, this makes sense ....... both marks are showing
http://www.silvercollection.it/englishsilvermarksXGGGG.html
GG
George Gray struck over Peter and Anne Bateman
London 1795 hallmark
But if you look at the spoons in the ebay listing there doesn't appear to be any sign of another mark.
And the seller is listing as a Hester Bateman, but giving the date it was overmarked by George Gray as 1793........Hester's last mark was used until 1790, so even if this was hers would there be that much of a gap? The George Gray over Peter and Anne falls in the correct time frame. The mark of Peter and Anne was larger than that of Hester, which would account for it not totally 'disappearing'........but then how does one prove overmark if there is no indication of a previous mark??
It's too early in the morning for my head to get around this ::)
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OK, found this. Would likely explain how they came to that conclusion, but what's to say they aren't actually his own work??
http://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Makers/London-GE-GJ.html
George Gray 1782..1806
(registered Oct 1782) Flatware, jug Often overstruck on the work of Hester and Peter & Ann Bateman
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A few more tidbits......
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14766
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3549
"N. B. Every shopkeeper who shall strike his own mark over the workman's mark, is liable to a penalty of ten pounds, unless his own mark is entered at Goldsmiths' Hall.
It is the last line of this notice that is of interest here. This perhaps is the answer as to why some of the provincial silversmiths, like Thomas Ollivant of Manchester, registered at the LAO even though they did not appear to have any work assayed there, instead choosing to use the office at Chester, as noted by Mike (MCB), for the assay of his own work.
I had always assumed that silversmiths, like Ollivant, registered at London purely because, at this time, there was a certain kudos about 'London Made' pieces, but could not understand why they did not use oversize punches, as did George Gray, if the intent was to make the public think that they had a manufactory in London."
And another.......which should make your head spin even more (because it seems the topic was having the same effect here too)
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5488
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This is really bugging me!! I'm on vacation, it's gorgeous and sunny outside and I have a million things to get at, but damn ....... I can't stop digging. >:(
A much better example of a George Gray over Hester Bateman.....Now you'd think if he wanted to totally obliterate her mark, it could easily have been accomplished
http://www.steppeshillfarmantiques.com/silver-and-porcelain/d/george-iii-marrow-scoop-hester-bateman-overstamped/82495/162586
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Another example of the same.....but you also might find this page helpful in identifying some of her works as you continue collecting.
http://www.ascasonline.org/articoloGENNA142.html
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I think we have possibly gone waaaay off topic, but until we're caught........... ;)
Came across a nice little bio on Hester. You've probably already seen this in your searching
http://www.bexfield.co.uk/01/article6.htm
And another, that has other family info and links to items currently for sale
http://www.antiquesilverspoons.co.uk/spoonmakers.htm#Bateman
The day is flying by but I'm having too much fun ;)
http://acn.liveauctioneers.com/index.php/columns-and-international/cowans-corner/1373-cowans-corner-english-silver-by-hester-bateman
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Thank you so much for doing all that research sapphire! I really appreciate it and learned a lot. :)
I feel really stupid right about now. Although I haven't paid, I am already having buyer's remorse. Do you see the problem with these spoons? :-X
I didn't notice until after I clicked "BUY IT NOW."
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150655958562
Grrrrrr! Were these made this way?? Were they altered? I have seen letters engraved on the back of the handle before but never thought that the entire handle could have been reversed. Although the stamps are on the back as they should be. Maybe a "recycled" handle? Smoothed out the previous marks and added their own?
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Here are a few more...Maybe the underside engraving and backwards curl was normal? Just looks...backwards.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-French-Silver-tea-coffee-Spoon-1800-/150600230818?pt=Antiques_Silver&hash=item23107927a2
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1740s-English-Sterling-Silver-Spoon-Marmaduke-Daintry-/260842187031?pt=Antiques_Silver&hash=item3cbb67e917
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Speaking of the George Gray overmarks, this one looks very much like a Hester Bateman spoon and I can see a mark under his.
Hey, I'm slowly gettin' the hang of this! They want far too much for a damaged, overmarked spoon though. http://www.ebay.com/itm/ENGLISH-STERLING-TABLE-SPOON-GEORGE-GRAY-1787-/350482683194?pt=Antiques_Silver&hash=item519a65553a
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Ok, ok. They are not backwards. Crisis averted. About 90 percent of the Ebenezer Coker spoons I see online are just like those with the engraving undernearth and the upturned tip.