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Antiques! => Antique Questions Forum => Topic started by: dr612 on October 28, 2011, 02:51:31 PM
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I own through inheritance a 5 legged card table with a triple elliptic shape that came down through my mother's family, whose forebears lived outside Albany, NY, from about 1795 to 1828. For what it may be worth, my mother and grandfather referred to the table during their lifetimes as the "Duncan Phyfe table", although it never fit my perception of typical Duncan Phyfe style. However, after much research, I am convinced that it very well could be a Phyfe table, albeit an unusual one.
The characteristics that appear to me to be unique to Phyfe are the reverse curved carved legs and the small brass lion's paw feet. I have only located three other federal tables with this style of reverse curve leg, the two card tables at Yale (Accession Nos. 1930-2004 a,b) and the dressing table described in McClelland's book on Phyfe (Plate 152). These legs are also similar, although table length, to the legs of the window bench at MMA (Accession No. 38.52.3), and to several Sheraton chairs by Phyfe (e.g., Plate II in Cornelius; Brooklyn Museum, Accession No. 42.118.9). All of those pieces are attributed to Phyfe.
Also, the small brass lion's paw feet appear to be peculiar to Phyfe, at least in the New York area. While there are a number of pieces attributed to Phyfe that use this foot, I have only found 3 examples of this foot in non-Phyfe pieces, two from the Boston area (one being the Thomas Seymour 1809 commode), and one which was unidentified, and perhaps English.
At any rate, I am hopeful that some of you are knowledgeable in this period and can help with this mystery. I have additional photographs of various parts of the table if there is something specific that would help. Many thanks.
Donald
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Beautiful peice. Someone will know more than I. I know on "Antique Roadshow" one sold for $460,000. You can look old shows.
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On first glance,, Phyfe would be the only one I would have thought of !! Can`t believe you have an actual period piece !! Much of what he did is either in museums or private collections !! And this has always been in your family ??Right ??
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mart, isn't it something. It's very special. He's very lucky.
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Thanks. It is a beautiful table. If my assumptions are correct (about the Albany connection), I would be the seventh generation "steward" of this table.
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What a gorgeous table! With some more pictures, our forum member jacon4 would probably be able to help with identification. I will post a link to his profile page so you can send him a private message, he knows so much about early furniture. :)
Just scroll down the the bottom of this page:
http://www.antique-shop.com/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=4466
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Although this foot style is not what was used most, there are several examples of it at the Metropolitan Museum !! Provenance is critical in the identification and value of period pieces and the fact that your family lived in the area during the time period that he worked !! I am certainly no expert on his work, but what I have read and seen examples of, he certainly is my choice !! If you can find a copy ( I had one years ago ) look in the Directoire of American Furniture, and see if there is anything similar !! Although you may not find an identical match to your table, some of the drawings may give you enough plus points to say that he is most likely the maker !!
It is a stunningly beautiful table !! I am so glad you posted to this forum !!
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Thank you so much for your suggestions. I have sent jacon4 a message, so I am hopeful that I can send more photos. I am attaching another picture of the tabletop with high intensity light. The color and figure of the wood is amazing.
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Phyfe was extremely particular about the woods he used !! During his time mahogany was a major import and he used highly figured mahogany veneers in much of his furniture !! I think thats what your table is !! It absolutely breathtaking !!
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HEY KIDS! HAPPY HALLOWEEN!!!
Phyfe huh? Well, i've got some good news and bad news, first the GOOD NEWS! I am a collector/student of early american mostly and not federal although i do have several period pieces of federal in the sheraton & hepplewhite style so i dont claim expertise in federal as it is not the primary focus of my research. And now the bad news.....
"Only rarely did Phyfe attach a trade label to his furniture, and few objects in the "Phyfe style" can be conclusively linked to the cabinetmaker through documents or family histories. Historians presume that Phyfe's confidence in the skill of his craftsmen and the prominence of his style precluded the need to assiduously label his furnishings"
This is why, even in museum collections you see " attributed to" so often when Phyfe style furniture is displayed. For a better understanding & timeline of Phyfe & Charles-Honorι Lannuier, 2 of new york citys leading cabinetmakers in the early 19th century , check out this piece by the MET.
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/phla/hd_phla.htm
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So Donald, what i would do if i was in your shoes is, first determine if your card table tool marks/ construction details matches the timeline of manufacture by Phyfe. (one really cant do this with pics, it must be done in person, preferably under 1000 watts of light) And, if it is in fact a period piece, then i would hunt for someone who is or has documented Phyfe furniture or has studied it extensively. You will find that, generally speaking, old furniture people LOVE to discuss old furniture, never met an antiquarian that didnt. The bottom line? At best you are going to be in the "attributed to" group but hey, thats not a bad place to be considering Phyfe was a hardhead about attaching labels to his furniture. What he didnt consider is, his success in cabinetmaking would be copied by others, which it was, even while he was working.
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Thanks. I actually have had someone locally look at it in person under high intensity light, and she is very positive that it is period; however, as you know, tying it definitively to Phyfe takes expertise that we don't have in this part of the country. I guess I will wait for next year's Antique Roadshow and load it up to the nearest site. I still believe that the reverse curve legs are key. I have seen nothing to suggest that Allison, Dolan or Woodruff made tables or chairs with that style leg, and it is clearly not a Lannuier style table. Thanks for your input.
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Donald, no problem, wishes i could help more but i am more into colonial (18th century) era furniture. Are you located in Albany? What i would do is inquire through email/high resolution pics of someone like a curator or book author that has studied Phyfe and his furniture personally rather than a hit or miss chance at AR. I have done this sort of thing often when i get a piece i am not sure of, naturally, sometimes if i inquire with 5 different folks, i'll get 5 different answers, lol. I would note that with early american, 99% of it is by an unknown maker so that is hardly ever discussed, its more about region and contruction details consistent with regions.
I would add that construction details are very important, for instance, what species of wood did Phyfe use for his secondary wood? Is it consistent with known pieces? The joinery is another detail thats important, every cabinetmaker has a certain way of doing things, dovetails, attaching drawer bottoms, mortise & tendons, etc. These kind of construction details are very helpful, vital in fact, if one has known pieces to compare with.
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Thanks again. I wish I was in the Albany area, as I could probably get someone up from NYC to look at it. I am down on the Gulf Coast, well out of the range of most federal period experts and museums that have this period furniture. Any suggestions as to who to contact?
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The piece here is a good example of the old furniture i collect, i was recently inquiring on the condition (always of primary interest) as well as why they think this table is from RI. I was quite smitten with the leg turnings of this piece as well as its overall presence, below is a pic as well as the reply back to my initial inquiry, naturally, before a decision is made, there be many more inquiries.
William and Mary maple dressing table with crossed stretcher base and turned ball feet.
Rhode Island, 1720 1745.
Figured Maple, with chestnut and Eastern White Pine secondary wood.
Dimensions: height 27 ½, width of case 24 3/8, depth of case 16, width of top 30 ½, depth of top 21 ½
Description: A William and Mary figured maple dressing table featuring a rectangular overhanging top with a thumb molded edge. The top is supported by a conforming rectangular case featuring three pull-out drawers. Each drawer features a single cast brass William and Mary hardware and is surrounded by an applied double arched cockbeaded edge. Below the drawers the case features a scrolled apron with a high arched center section flanked by two applied turned wood pendant drops. The case is supported by four bulbous turned stylized trumpet legs that are intersected by flat serpentine cross stretchers with rounded edges. The cross stretchers feature a large applied turned wood finial at the intersection of the stretchers. All is supported by four bulbous turned ball feet applied below the stretchers.
Condition: In fine condition with original construction throughout and retaining a good old surface with mellow color and a soft patina. The applied cast brass hardware are period replacements. The two turned pendant drops are modern replacements and there are small repairs to the caps above the pendant drops. There is a small repair to the right rear side of the flat crossed stretchers. There is also an old repair, retaining the original piece, to a triangular piece on the front left edge of the top.
Provenance: This rare and diminutive William and Mary dressing table features the serpentine shaped flat crossed stretchers associated with early Rhode Island cabinetmakers. The construction elements and the use of chestnut secondary wood supports this attribution.
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Donald, hmmmmm, maybe, do you have any high quality detail pics as well as detailed description? Although one can never authenticate old furniture for sure with pics, details alone, they help a great deal if they are high quality. If so, email me at
jacon4@hotmail.com and i'll check around, it would not hurt to have them on hand even if i cant as that way they would be available to others as well.
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This is quite an education. Thank you.
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Hey Green, Yeah! we talkin old furniture here! Did a quick google and here is a book from 1922 that one can read online, one of the great things about the net. click read online
http://openlibrary.org/books/OL6649463M/Furniture_masterpieces_of_Duncan_Phyfe
One of the things that jumps out at me is the legs, Phyfe was very fond of fluted turned legs in the Sheraton style for his tables.
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jacon4, I will email you the powerpoint file of photos I mentioned earlier. By the way, if you have access to the Cornelius book you are referencing, check out Plates II and XI. While they are chair length legs, the similarities of overall shape ending with the small lion's paw foot are striking. Even down to the slight change of angle as the curved leg goes into the brass foot. Interesting.
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Please let us know what the experts decide on your table !!
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I certainly will. I love the website, by the way. Wish I had discovered it earlier.
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We hope you will continue here !! Even if you are not researching one of your pieces,,you learn something new everyday around here !! Glad to have you aboard !!
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Just wanted to say that both are stunning!! :D
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Thanks again. I wish I was in the Albany area, as I could probably get someone up from NYC to look at it. I am down on the Gulf Coast, well out of the range of most federal period experts and museums that have this period furniture. Any suggestions as to who to contact?
dr612, ...... here you go, ........ and am pretty sure you will get a reply from Leigh. I knew them (twins) and their parents when I lived in upstate NY, ..... long before they became famous antiquers.
Cheers, ........... Sam Cogar
LEIGH KENO
Leigh Keno American Antiques
127 East 69th Street
New York, NY 10021
(212) 734-2381 (phone)
(212) 734-0707 (fax)
leigh@leighkeno.com
Mr. Keno opened his own gallery in 1986, after working as Director of the American Furniture department at William Doyle Galleries and as Vice President of the Appraisal department and as a specialist in the American Furniture department at Christie's. He just finished writing a book with his brother, Leslie, and Joan Barzilay Freund called Hidden Treasures: Searching for Masterpieces of American Furniture. It was published by Warner Books in the fall of 2000.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006040609604
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Agrees with Cogar, finding dealers that specialize in your field of interest is a great way to get info, leads when one is researching old furniture or probably anything else for that matter. First off they handle the objects daily, are in biz to buy and sell those objects and so likely to interact with anyone that might be a future sale or purchase opportunity.
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Interesting article in Chipstone on Phyfe & Ernest Hagan, a late 19th century NYC german cabinetmaker who restored, repaired & made copies and documented much about what is known about Phyfe
http://www.chipstone.org/publications/1996AF/Waters/1996WatersIndex.html
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Thanks to all again. You have provided several leads which I will follow up. I will keep you posted.
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Thanks for the site Jacon4. Can't wait to read.
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OMG, breath taking! The furniture is beautiful. I can see though the legs if his furniture were mostly straight, except for the dinning room tables of the lyre designed. The sofas are beautiful. It's art.
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There is a renewed interest lately on Phyfe and his work, check out this video for the kind of construction details that sometimes reveal who could have made the object, apparently Duncan card table tops had "issues" in the way they were constructed.
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/44703/duncan-phyfe-master-cabinetmaker/?&lookup=auto&V18=&V19=&V20=&V21=&V22=&V23=&V24=&V25=&V26=&V53=&V54=&Taun_Per_Flag=true&utm_source=email&utm_medium=eletterutm_term=audio-slideshow&utm_content=20120204-dovetail-techniques&utm_campaign=fine-woodworking-eletter
So the question is, does this card table of dr612 have that cracked veneer top and glued up substrate that are peculiar to NYC cabinetmakers. It's stuff like this that requires in person examination of period pieces, pics are great but theres really no way to be sure until looked at by someone who is familiar with the object.
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I am still waiting to hear back on this table !! btw Jacon4 that W&M piece of yours is fantastic as well !! Can`t watch videos,, dial up you know, but would love to read the article if possible !!
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Mart,
Dang, cant watch the video huh, that sucks. The video is all there is as far as i know. In any event, it describes some construction details that were peculiar to Phyfe and, if they are not present in a piece, send up a red flag. As i pointed out in previous post, there is really no way to authenticate a period piece of furniture with photo's alone, it's gotta be examined in person by someone who knows the object at hand and is familiar with construction details of a particular maker.
Yeah, i am interested to know what happened to this table as well, hopefully he'll post and fill us in.
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Dial up sucks big time !! But thats the way it is in the country unless you want to pay an arm & leg !! I know that the makers did not mark furniture for various reasons and it makes identification a bit difficult !! One of my first books on antiques was "The Directoire of American Furniture" !! It was my bible on furniture for a long time !! But here in Texas we rarely get an opportunity to actually see period furniture much less touch and examine it !! Closest we usually get are all those repro pieces !! Even though many dealers and estate sales never bother to say that !! Thats one reason I like this forum,,occassionally get to see really good furniture as well as other items !!
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I was going to suggest the Keno brothers but someone already did. They will be excited to see this piece I am sure. I just spent an hour trying to find a table from that period with those legs and could not find a single example. The fact that you know the history of your family makes me think your are right on the money with the period. I can't wait to see what you find out. Thanks so much for sharing this. I really enjoyed seeing it. Here in NJ a piece will turn up at an estate sale once in a while for an astronomical price. Occasionally someone find a piece in a basement with six coats of paint but not very often. In thirty years I found two period chairs in bad shape. Aside from the big empire stuff that no one wanted. Never anything like this. This is the stuff antique geeks dream of.
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Thanks for all your input and interest. Since I first posted these pictures, I have had the table examined in person by three antique dealers/appraisers, Winston Garth of Garth's Auction and Antiques (here in Pensacola), John Dwight Stevens, of Stevens Auctions in Aberdeen, MS, and Ann Benton, of Americana Advisors, who worked in New York with Federal furniture for a number of years. I also have sent these photos to two Federal furniture dealers in NY and Conn. All five have indicated that they believe it is a period Federal New York table. Mr. Stevens estimated around 1800, Mr Garth, "early 1800s."
As far as pinning it down to Phyfe's workshop, the substrate of the table is made of joined mahogany boards, rather than white pine, which Jesse Goldberg of Artemis Galleries has stated was one of the indicia of Phyfe. They have separated over time in two places and created the veneer cracks that Jacon4 was referencing. I think that the most telling feature is the carved cabriole legs, which are quite out of the norm for that time period. However, there is a very small number of known tables with these legs. Two are the card tables from the Garvan collection at Yale, one is a dressing table known to have been made for Phyfe's grandniece, and the fourth is a work table sold by Christies in 1998. The lot notes for that sale state:
"The design of this work table successfully combines sinuous curves and geometric casework to create one of the most sophisticated and elegant forms from New York's Classical era. Attenuated cabriole legs on classical furniture are rare and only found on a small group of card tables, work tables and a dressing table. This work table most closely resembles a pair of card tables in the collection of Yale University Art Gallery illustrated here with waterleaf-carved legs, paw feet and almost identical carved rosettes on the canted corners above the legs. A dressing table that descended in the family of Emily Phyfe Dunham, Duncan Phyfe's grandniece, bears legs similar to those on the Yale card tables and the work table offered here and provides the basis for the attribution to Phyfe's shop (Nancy McClelland, Duncan Phyfe and the English Regency (New York, 1939), pl. 152). The remaining examples in this group all feature reeded legs and lack waterleaf carving (a card table sold in these Rooms, The Collection of Ronald Kane, 22 January 1994, lot 376; a work table sold at Sotheby's New York, 28-30 January 1988, lot 1810; a work table sold at Sotheby's New York, 23-24 June 1993, lot 455)."
I was going to attach a photo of the underside of the table showing the joined mahogany substrate (as well as showing braces which have been attached to the underside to stabilize the veneer cracks.) However, I can can't seem to figure out how to attach a photo in the reply mode.
Sorry for the length of the post, but I am cautiously optimistic that this amazing table can be attributed to Phyfe or his workshop, and so far it appears to be one of a kind. Any further insights or information that you have would be a great help.
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I think I have figured out the picture problem. Here are photos showing the underside (substrate) of the table.
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Did I read you correctly that the person said Phyfe did or did not use mahogany as secondary wood ?? All I have read said that he used a great deal of mahogany as secondary wood !!
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A piece that I recently read by the owner of Artemis Galleries, Jesse Goldberg, said that unlike most of his contemporaries, Phyfe used mahogany boards for the substrate of his card tables. The commonly used wood (for substrates) at the time was white pine. Mahogany is denser than pine, and should not shrink as much with time. However, since the tabletop is fixed by screws to the table rail at the outer edge, any shrinkage across the grain of the substrate boards would create cracks in the veneer, which is what commonly happened.
If I can locate a link to that article I will post it.
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That is what I have read also !! Mahogany should be the secondary wood !! Just didn`t quite get that sentence !!
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Neat! Yes, i figured those legs would be of primary interest as they are not in the "normal" fashion of federal era furniture (sheraton,hepplewhite,classical). Thats one of the cool things about old American furniture, it was VERY fluid in how they adapted designs of other countries furniture fashion to american taste. In england for instance, there was a rigid guild system that cabinetmakers worked under which tended to stamp out innovation in how furniture was built and looked. Not so in america where furniture makers were free to explore all manner of building & design features which is often frustrating today when trying to determine the who, where & when of days long past. Thus, it's quite common to find "unique" or one of a kind pieces in american furniture forms. Basically, American cabinetmakers & the clients they served, just didnt give a damn about what the fashionista's in europe thought about american design adaptations in furniture.
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If I remember correctly the Metropolitan Museum has a well documented piece by Phyfe with the cabriole leg !! Quite similar to this table !! Hope my memory is right !! It was unusual form for the time !!
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You are right, they do. It is a window seat, so the legs are chair length, but the form, carving and feet are identical. If you noticed, the regency chair shown in the video (at about 3:30 mark) also uses this leg, although again chair length.
Here is a photo of the Met's window seat.
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If you havent already, it might be worth sending Elizabeth Adler at Hirschl & Adler an email and see if she replies, they seem to have alot of NYC federal stuff in their gallery with a particular interest in Phyfe.
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That is a good idea, and I will want to do that. She seems pretty knowledgeable about Phyfe. One thing that I have found with dealers, and it's not a criticism, is that unless you want to sell the item, they don't want to spend a lot of time on it. Perfectly understandable, as they are in business to earn a living. Since they are Phyfe experts, she may want to see this as it is so out of the mainstream. I have an email address for her, so I will do that. Let you know what she says.
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This thread is as fascinating as a good history channel TV show. I can't wait for the next episode. I am learning a great deal from it. Thanks again for posting this.